Transcript of D 2007 - Steve Jobs and Bill Gates Historic Interview
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0:05[Music]0:21[Music]0:25would like uh I why don't you to sit0:27here go sit here okay0:33well thank you uh before we get started0:35I I think uh you know there were some0:37pioneers of0:38course uh we have the Pioneers here on0:42stage but there were some other really0:44important Pioneers in the video we just0:46saw and a couple of them are here in the0:48audience so uh Mitch Kore who is a0:50regular te could you just stand up and0:53wherever you are there he0:58is1:04and and Fred Gibbons who has not come to1:07db4 but is here tonight1:10Fred there's1:13Fred right1:17there and I don't know if any's in the1:19room but I do want to recognize uh our1:22fellow journalist Brent schender from1:24Fortune who did the last to my knowledge1:27the last joint interview these guys did1:28it was not on a stage but it was a1:30Fortune Magazine interview Bren I I1:32don't know if you're in the room if you1:33are can you stand maybe he's back there1:37we over1:41there so1:44um so let's get started um I wanted to1:47ask uh there's been a lot of like Mano1:50Mano cat fight kind of thing in a lot of1:52the blogs and the press and stuff like1:54that and we wanted to the first question1:56I was interested in asking is what you1:57think each has contributed to the1:59computer and Technology industry2:01starting with you Steve for Bill and2:04vice2:05versa2:08um well you know Bill built the first2:11software company in the industry and2:15uh I think he built the first software2:18company before anybody really in our2:20industry knew what a software company2:22was except for these guys and that was2:25huge that was really huge and the2:28business model that they ended up2:29pursuing turned out to be the one that2:31worked really well you know for the2:32industry so I think but the the biggest2:35thing was Bill was really focused on2:37software before almost anybody else had2:41a clue that that it was really the2:43software that's what I see I mean a lot2:45of other things you could say but that's2:46the high order bit and I think building2:48a company is really hard and and it2:52requires it requires your greatest2:55persuasive abilities to hire the best2:57people you can and keep them keep them2:59keep keep them at your company and keep3:00them working you know doing the best3:03work of their lives hopefully and uh3:06Bill's been able to stay with it for all3:08these years so Bill how about the3:11contribution of steveen Apple well first3:14I want to clarify I'm not fake Steve3:16Jobs3:22uh no what Steve's done is quite3:25phenomenal you know if you look back to3:281977 that Apple 2 computer the idea that3:32it would be a mass Market machine uh you3:35know the bet that was made there by3:37Apple uniquely there were other people3:38with products but the idea that this3:41could be an incredible empowering3:43phenomena Apple pursued that dream uh3:47you know then uh one of the most fun3:49things we did to together M was the3:51Macintosh and that was so risky and3:53people may not remember that Apple3:54really bet the company Lisa hadn't done3:57that well and uh you know some people4:00were saying okay that General approach4:01wasn't good but the team that Steve4:04built even within the company to pursue4:08that uh even some days it felt a little4:11ahead of its time uh I don't remember4:13that Twiggy disc drive and 28k yeah uh4:18and ah the Twiggy dis Drive4:22yes Steve gave a speech once which is4:25one of my favorites where he talked4:26about in a certain sense we build the4:28products that we want to use ourselves4:29El uh and you know so he's really4:34pursued that with Incredible taste and4:36elegance that has had a a huge impact on4:39the industry uh and his ability to4:42always come around and figure out where4:45that next bet should be uh has been4:47phenomenal you know Apple literally was4:50failing when Steve went back and uh4:53reinfused the uh Innovation and4:56risk-taking that have uh been phenomenal4:59so the indust benefited immensely uh5:01from his his work we've both been lucky5:04to be part of it but uh you know I'd say5:07he's contributed as much as anyone um5:09well we've also we've also both been5:11incredibly lucky to have had great5:15partners that we started the companies5:17with and we've attracted great people I5:19mean so everything that's been done at5:22Microsoft and at Apple has been done by5:24just remarkable people uh none of which5:27are sitting up here you know today well5:30not us well you're sort of the not not5:32us you're sort of you're so you're in a5:35way you're the standings for all those5:36all those other people in a way we are5:39um very tangible way so Bill mentioned5:41the Apple 2 and and 1977 and 30 years5:46ago and there were a couple of other5:48computers with uh which were uh aimed at5:51the idea that average people might be5:54able to use them and looking back on it5:57an really average average person might5:59not have been able to use them by6:00today's standards but it certainly6:02broaden the base of who could use6:03computers I actually looked at a uh at6:06an Apple ad from 1978 it was a print ad6:10that shows you how ancient it was and uh6:13and it said thousands of people have6:15discovered the Apple computer thousands6:17of people uh and it also said you don't6:21want to buy one of these computers where6:23you put a cartridge in I think that was6:25a a reference to one of the Atari or6:28something you want a computer you can6:30write your own programs on and so the6:33world and obviously people we had we had6:35some very strange ads back then we had6:37one where it was in a kitchen and there6:39was a a a woman that looked like the6:42wife and she was typing in recipes on6:44the computer with the husband looking on6:46approvingly in the back stuff like that6:49yeah how did that work for you I don't6:51think well so um but but just think back6:56to I I I know that you started Microsoft6:58prior to 1977 you I think Apple started7:00the year before in 76 Microsoft in 747:05was5 and then yeah then we did the B7:08shipped the basic in 75 okay um most7:12people uh some people here but I don't7:14think most people know that there was7:15actually a some Microsoft software in7:17that Apple 2 computer do you want to7:19talk about what happened there how that7:21how that7:22occurred yeah the uh the there had been7:26the Al and a few other companies7:28actually about 20 4 that had done7:31various machines but the 77 group7:34included the pet uh t80 Comm and the7:38comer pet uh tr80 and the Apple 2 the7:41original Apple 2 basic the integer basic7:44uh we had nothing to do with but then7:46there was a floating point one uh where7:49uh and I mostly worked with W on that uh7:52I made I let me tell this story so7:57was was7:59my partner we started out this guy Steve8:01wnac brilliant brilliant guy he writes8:03this basic that is like the best basic8:06on the planet it does stuff that no8:07other basic's ever done you don't have8:09to run it to find your error messages it8:10finds them when you type it in and stuff8:12it's perfect in every way except for one8:14thing which is it's it's just fixed8:16point right it's not it's not floating8:18point and so we're getting a lot of8:20input that people want this basic to be8:22floating point and like we're begging WS8:25please please make this floating point8:26Who's we how many people are in apple8:28well me8:30what ban was to make this floating point8:33and he he just never does it you know8:34and he wrote it by hand on paper I mean8:36you know he didn't we he didn't have an8:37assembler or anything to write it with8:38it was all just written on paper and he8:40typed it in he just never got around to8:42making a floating Point well this is one8:44of the mysteries of life I don't know8:46but he never did and so you know8:49Microsoft had this very popular really8:51good floating Point basic that we ended8:53up going to them and saying help and and8:56and how much was the I think you were8:57telling us earlier that was $31,0008:59thatle paid for the floating Point basic9:02and I flew out to Apple I spent two days9:03there getting the cassette the cassette9:05tapes were the main ways that people9:06stored things at the time right uh and9:10you know that was fun I think the most9:12fun uh is is later uh when we work9:17together what was the most fun tell tell9:19the story about the most fun that was9:20later and maybe later not the most9:23fun let let him talk teasing I'm teasing9:27well you know Steve can probably uh9:30start it better the the team that was9:32assembled there to do the Macintosh was9:33a very committed team and there was an9:37equivalent team on our side that just9:39got totally focused on this activity9:41Jeff Harbors a lot of uh incredible9:44people and we really BET our future um9:48because we on the Macintosh being9:51successful and then hopefully Graphics9:53interface in general being successful9:54but first and foremost the thing that9:56would popularize that being the9:58Macintosh and and so we were working10:01together the schedules were uncertain10:03the quality was uncertain the price when10:06Steve first came up it was going to be a10:09lot cheaper computer uh than it ended up10:12being but that was fine10:15uh so you worked in both places in both10:19well we we were in Seattle and we flyed10:21down there Microsoft if I remember10:22correctly from what I read uh wasn't10:26Microsoft one of the few companies that10:27were allowed to even have a prototype of10:29at time what's interesting what what10:31what's hard to remember now is that10:33Microsoft wasn't in the applications10:35business then the they took a big bet on10:37the Mac because they this is how they10:39got into the apps business I mean Lotus10:42dominated the apps business on the PC10:43back then right we had done just multi10:46plan which was a hit on the Apple 2 and10:48then Mitch did an incredible job betting10:51on the IBM PC and one23 came in and you10:54know ruled that that part of the10:57business so the question was what was10:58the next paradigm shift that would allow11:00for an entry word perfect we had word11:03but Word Perfect was by far the11:04strongest word processing dbase and11:06database and word was that was a kind of11:08a Doss a text all of the all of these11:10products I'm saying were dos-based right11:12products CU Windows wasn't in the11:15picture at the time that's more in the11:17early 90s that that we get to that and11:20so we made this bet that the paren time11:22shift would be uh Graphics interface in11:24particular that the Macintosh would make11:26that happen with 128k of memory 22k of11:30which was for the screen buffer uh 14k11:33was for the operating system so it was11:35uh 14k yeah11:3714k yeah the original Mac operating11:39system was 14k 14k that we had to have11:43loaded when our software Ran So when the11:46shell would come up it had all the 128k11:49the OS was the OS was bigger than 14k it11:51was in the 20s somewhere I see so we11:55ship these no we ship these computers11:57now with you know a gigabyte two11:58gigabytes of memory12:00and and nobody remembers12:02128k I remember that I remember I12:05remember paying a lot of money for12:06computers with 128k in those days so um12:09the two companies worked closely on the12:12on the Mac project CU because you were12:14maybe not the only but the principal or12:16one of the principal software creators12:19for it right is that right well Apple12:21did the Mac itself but we got we got12:23bill and his team involved to write12:25these applications and we were doing a12:27few apps ourselves we did Mac paint and12:28Mac draw and stuff like that but uh bill12:31and his team did some great12:33work now in terms of going moving12:35forward when after you left and your12:38company grew more and more strong how12:40did you what did you think was going to12:42happen to Apple after sort of the12:44disasters that occurred after Steve left12:47well Apple's fate hung in the balance uh12:50we continued to do Macintosh software12:53and uh you know Excel which Steve and I12:57introduced together in New York City uh13:00uh that was kind of a fun event that13:02went on and did very well um but then13:05you know Apple just wasn't13:08differentiating itself well enough from13:11uh the higher volume platform and13:15meaning Windows right I mean Daws and13:17windows okay but especially windows in13:20the 990s began to take off by 199513:23Windows became popular the big debate13:26wasn't sort of Mac versus Windows the13:27big debate was character mode interface13:29versus Graphics mode interface and when13:31the 386 came and we got more memory and13:35the speed was adequate and some13:36development tools came along that13:37Paradigm bet on guey paid off for13:42everybody who'd gotten in early and said13:43you know this is the way that's going to13:46go uh and but Apple wasn't able to13:48leverage its they weren't they after the13:52512k Mac was done the product line just13:55didn't evolve uh as fast13:59uh Steve wasn't there uh uh as it needed14:03to and we were actually negotiating a14:05deal to invest and and make some14:07commitments and things with Gil14:09amilio uh14:11and no seriously and we don't be mean14:14don't be mean to him I'm sorry just14:16saying the word goo you can see him just14:18uh and so I was calling him up on the14:21weekend and all this stuff and next14:23thing I knew Steve called me up and said14:26don't worry about that negotiation with14:28Gil Amilia14:29uh uh you can just talk to me now and I14:32said14:35wow you Gil was a nice guy but he had a14:38saying he said um apple is like a ship14:42with a hole in the bottom leaking water14:45and my job is to get the ship pointed in14:48the right14:53direction14:58uhhuh15:04okay
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