Transcript of Rian Johnson Breaks Down a Scene From 'Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery' | Vanity Fair
Vanity Fair
0:00Josh Oconor is really something special.0:02The whole movie hinges on the audience0:04being on this character's side. And Josh0:06can fake being a likable person. Incred.0:09No, he's the one of the most likable0:11people in the world. It's absurd. He has0:13a big heart right there. I'm using this0:16to its full extent. Is this ever This is0:18like film school right here. Hi, I'm0:20Ryan Johnson. I'm the writer and0:22director of Wake Up Dead Man. And this0:24is Notes on the Scene.0:32I tell you something, I don't even like0:34the devil.0:35>> What we're looking at here is a scene0:39that's in the middle of the0:40investigation. And our setup here is0:43Father Jud, who's played by Josh O'0:45Connor, is being brought along by0:47Detective Benois Blancc, played by0:49Daniel Craig. And they're accompanied by0:52Gerald Dean, who is the local police0:54chief, played by Maunis. We shot the0:56movie mostly in London. We did a little0:58bit of second unit work [music] in a1:00small town up in the Hudson Valley. And1:01this is a drone shot from there. And1:04then this is kind of an interesting1:07effect shot because the facade of this1:10bar was built on a stage in London. And1:14I think also some of the1:17sidewalk is a set lit by lights to make1:21it look like it's it's sunlit. We went1:23to great expense to get Blanc's car1:26right here. is shot in uh upstate New1:29York in a small town. Movie magic now1:32ruined for you. Sorry.1:35This is the murder weapon. Slight1:38spoiler alert. If it's a spoiler that1:39there's a murder in a murder mystery,1:41you just got it. And this head, this1:43wolf head was a lamp top in one of the1:47lamps in this bar. And it's been removed1:49at some point and used as the top of1:51this knife. And so that's why they're1:53investigating this place.1:54>> I'll tell you something. I don't even1:55like the devil, you know. El Diablo, it1:58sounds classy Italian. That's fine.2:00>> Noah Sean, star of stage and screen with2:03that ridiculous mustache. I try and2:06isolate the role that has the most2:07potential for absolutely stupid facial2:09hair and then I put Noah Sean in it.2:12Noah is one of my best friends and he2:14was in my first movie, Brick. And I2:17mostly put him in all these movies2:18partially because he's a good actor, but2:20mostly just because it gives me and2:22Daniel somebody to go out drinking with2:24at night. His teacher says, "I spent the2:26night with Bert Reynolds." And then the2:28back of it says, "At the Bert Reynolds2:30dinner theater," which he was very happy2:32I let him wear it.2:34>> You know that my wife, she buys a devil2:36sign, then she buys a devil lamps, and2:38people start, "Oh, hey, get him a devil2:40thing for the bar. He loves it." And2:42then, you know, uh, devil devil devil2:45bang. I don't know.2:46>> This is a really beautiful set. This was2:48a Rick Heinrich special. Rick was our2:51production designer. There we go. It's a2:52good shot of it. And you get a good shot2:54of my brother right there. Also, Rick2:56Heinrich I worked with on The Last Jedi2:59and then he designed Glass Onion which3:02had some huge scale sets. And this set3:06is not a big massive one. Our biggest3:08set was the church. The interior of the3:10church is actually also one of the most3:12amazing sets I've ever walked onto that3:14Rick Hinrich designed. But this I love3:16just how rich it is. And this is largely3:18there's the set design and then there's3:21the art department who actually dresses3:23the set with all of this amazing detail.3:26And you can see all they basically had3:29this idea that this poor guy started a3:32devil themed bar. Everyone started3:33giving him more devil stuff and now he's3:35trapped in this bar. It's kind of like3:37when somebody learns, oh, she loves3:39rabbits, and suddenly this poor friend3:41of yours is getting 18 rabbit themed3:44gifts for their birthday and is cursed3:46with being surrounded by rabbits in3:47their life. It's like that, but with the3:49devil. So, we had great fun thinking of3:51of different kind of variants of3:53different posters and stuff. And there's3:55also there's this dude here who I guess3:57is a professional wrestler who is kind4:00of pizzeria themed. Hundreds of people4:02are screaming at the screen right now. I4:04I don't know his name. Noah is probably4:06furious at me when he watches this, but4:08that's a little Easter egg for you. And4:10this is my brother. And this is his son4:13and his wife. And yes, they're all4:15there. And this is something very4:17special. I was buddies with the late4:20great Ricky Jay, who was an amazing4:23magician and a scholar of magic and many4:25other things. And I try and work Ricky4:27into every one of these movies. Very4:30happy to have Ricky in the movie4:31representing.4:32>> But that but that's it, right? That's4:34>> Yeah. So,4:35>> this is figuring out the clue of the4:38devil head.4:39>> But, you know, it wasn't red, though.4:40It's red now.4:41>> It's paint.4:42>> Yes. Yes. Freshly painted.4:45>> We filled it with some kind of plaster4:47and stuck the blade in that way.4:49>> A big thing in this movie is the way the4:51murder happens. Father Jud is kind of4:53the only one who's in close proximity to4:56this impossible murder.4:58>> I'll do whatever it takes to save it to5:01cut you out. Basically, everyone in the5:03town thinks he's guilty and most of the5:06congregation hate him for different5:08reasons. And so this video has leaked5:11out where he was kind of dressing down5:13the guy who was murdered. It's going5:14around town. All to say, I use that5:17moment in this scene to kind of just5:18twist the knife a little bit with him5:20and have this random looking jerk5:22customer number one listening to that5:25clip just to kind of turn the screws on5:27Jud a little bit partway through this.5:29>> Like a cancer. Hey, Eddie Eddie. Hey,5:32come on.5:33>> Daniel Craig's magnificent5:36look, his satoral beauty in this. It's5:40something that he and our costume5:42designer, Jenny Egan, work on together.5:44And inevitably, what happens is Daniel5:46will read the script, he'll get the vibe5:47of it. He'll usually come to Jenny with5:50some kind of idea. In this case, I don't5:52want to speak for him and probably get5:54it wrong, but he he brought her5:56references of ' 70s tailoring for men.5:59So, it has a very kind of distinct cut6:02and they create a couple of absolutely6:06drop deadad gorgeous suits. Daniel Craig6:08is inside the suits, which is part of6:10what makes them incredibly gorgeous. I6:12don't know that I would be able to pull6:14this look off, but man, he's a he's a6:16good-looking dude in them.6:18>> The Red Devil head thing that ended up6:20where6:21>> in the church. I threw it at the church6:23and it broke a window. I don't know why.6:25>> Josh Oconor is really something special.6:27This guy right here, when I watched him6:29in Challengers, which was my favorite6:31movie of that year, I just there's6:33something magnetic about him and I met6:35with him and he's really something6:36special. It's not like the part changed6:38significantly from the page to the6:41screen, but he brought it up to another6:44level just because the whole point of6:46this character, it's similar to Janelle6:48Monet's part in Glass Onion or Anna6:50Darmis' part in Knives Out. It's a6:53character that the whole movie hinges on6:55the audience being on this character's6:56side. You need the audience to have6:59empathy for the character. And that's7:01not something you can buy or easily7:03manipulate. That's something that really7:05has to come from it being as simple as7:07the audience likes this person. And Josh7:10can fake being a likable person. Incred.7:13No, he's the one of the most likable7:15people in the world. It's absurd. He has7:17a big heart right there. I'm using this7:20to its full extent. Is this ever This is7:22like film school right here.7:25>> And then after the prison mass on7:26Monday, Martha said she found a small7:28broken window,7:30>> kids,7:31>> but nothing else.7:32>> Uh, a little flashback here. We got a7:34little glimpse of Glen Close as Martha.7:38Look at that gaze. Oh my god. Let's get7:40lost in those eyes. She's kind of the7:42keeper of the church. She is very devout7:45and she doesn't like at all that someone7:47has broken this window. She thinks it's7:50>> kids. That's one thing about these7:51movies. They're full of little7:53flashbacks, little flash forwards,7:56little flash to the sides. They're full7:58of little narrative things like that.7:59One of the things in writing them and8:01then in the editing with my editor Bob8:03Duceay, it's always about figuring out8:06what is going to make this easiest for8:08the audience to process. a flashback8:10that shows you something that visually8:13supports exactly what you're hearing is8:15going to kind of go with the grain and8:16just it's all about taking the onus off8:18of the audience in terms of keeping8:20track of all this stuff because there's8:22a lot to keep track of in this movie.8:24It's interesting when I made my first8:25movie Brick uh the one thing I hadn't8:28done was work with real actors. I had8:30made lots of shorts. I knew shots. I8:33knew editing. I knew something about8:36writing. The one thing I had never8:37experienced is working with actors. And8:40so it's the thing I was most terrified8:41of. I think because I had built up in my8:43head some idea that they have some8:45secret language they talk and you have8:46to know some kind of method or some way8:48of like talking to them. And it8:50instantly became my favorite part of the8:52whole process. Once I realized that with8:55really good actors it's it's not that at8:58all. It's play. It's communication and9:01it's play and it's forming a bond of9:04trust. And the reality is the more9:06actors I've wor I've been really really9:08blessed with getting to work with some9:10of the best actors in the world. It's9:11not like it's harder working with great9:13actors. It's actually a lot easier9:16working with great actors. Not just9:17because they're good, but because if9:20they are truly great at it, it's because9:21they love the process. They love they9:23want like Glen Close is a fantastic9:25example. Glen Close loves making movies.9:28She shows up on set every day and she9:31has these like childlike eyes when she9:34shows up on set just like what do we get9:36to do today? The whole rest of the cast9:37and me, we just fed off of her energy.9:40For somebody who's had the career that9:41she has and has the roles under her belt9:43that she's got, to see her show up every9:46day as if this is like the first day9:48that she gets to do this, it's pretty9:50thrilling. And it's also what leads to9:51great performances cuz that means9:53they're going to be engaged. They're not9:55coming at this with like, okay, I'll9:56I'll throw out a number five. I know how9:58to do this one. They're coming at every10:00day building it from the ground up.10:05All right, so this is a gag I'm very10:08happy with. Essentially, Blancc is10:10realizing that he can line up this photo10:13of the bar and kind of get a before and10:18after picture of when the devil head10:23was here and then10:27it's gone. The easy way, the sane way to10:30do this would have been with a comp to10:31just shoot this green screen. That's not10:33how we do it. We actually we set up our10:36Alexa camera right here. We got this10:39shot. We got the shot that we positioned10:42Jeremy here. We positioned Noah here and10:45got this shot uh for the still. And then10:48we left the camera locked down while we10:50went and put the shot in Photoshop and10:53exported the still from it and printed10:55out the still and put it in this frame10:58while we left the camera here. So, it10:59was the exact same perspective, exact11:01same lens, which is why it lines up11:03perfectly when he pulls it pulls it back11:06and forth. And I was very happy cuz this11:09whole thing with Noah leaning into the11:12exact same position was kind of11:14something that we just discovered while11:16we were shooting it. That was a very11:18happy accident. It's always fun when you11:20have these weird little practical ideas11:22and then you do them on set and you can11:24actually see them and the whole crew is11:26like, "Ah, that works." Look at those11:29 and gran. Look at that. So11:32Blancc, he functions in these movies11:34kind of in the same way that Puro11:36functions in Agatha Christiey's films or11:39Miss Marple or any of the great11:40detectives. For me, kind of the key to11:42it is that Blancc is never actually the11:44protagonist of these films. There's11:46always a character who is carrying the11:48lead. In this case, it's uh Joshua11:50Carter's character, Father Jud. But11:53Blancc always serves a very distinct11:56purpose in it. And he always is written12:00not as let's learn more about Blancc in12:02the story but as what is Blanc's12:04function in this mystery and then we12:06learn more about him through how he12:08engages with that. In this movie it's12:10all about his relationship with Father12:12Jud. Father Jud is a very good, very12:14devout priest and he's someone who has a12:17good heart and genuinely tries to be12:20Christlike in his life and love. And12:23Blancc is a man of reason, a man of12:26rational thinking, and doesn't think12:28very much of the church, but they form12:31kind of a partnership and a friendship12:32throughout the course of the movie12:35because it's a man of faith and a very12:37sincere, good-hearted man of faith in12:40Father Jud, who Blanc is kind of12:41partnered with throughout this. Daniel12:43and I kind of had a lot of conversations12:45digging into what Blancc's feelings12:48about faith are. And Daniel had the very12:50good instinct, and this is something12:51that developed when working with Daniel12:53kind of in rehearsals, that the harder12:56Blancc was set on the opposite side of12:58Jud in terms of their perspective on13:00faith, the stronger the film would be13:02because that relationship then is going13:04to have to be truly earned by two people13:07who are coming at it from very, very13:08different perspectives. That was a13:11incredibly smart insight on Daniel's13:13bath. I think it really plays in the13:15movie. This is I mean it's a Benois13:18mystery so first and foremost it's a big13:20fun entertainment. This is for me even a13:23little more personal than the previous13:25movies because faith and religion is at13:27the heart of this movie and uh I grew up13:31very uh Christian. I grew up not13:34Catholic. This movie is set in a13:36Catholic church. I grew up Protestant,13:38kind of what we would call evangelical13:40today. I was a youth group kid and it13:42wasn't just that my parents took me to13:43church. I I really um my whole13:46perspective in life was really based on13:49a relationship with Christ. It was very13:51important to me. I'm not anymore. I've13:53kind of grown away from that later in13:54life, but it's still something that I13:56have deep feelings about. So, this movie13:58in a way by having Father Jud and Ben14:02Blanc kind of talk about this and kind14:04of butt heads about it, it was a way for14:06me to take both of those perspectives14:07inside me and and get them talking with14:09each other.14:14Do you see that?14:15>> Jud then spots the thing that is it's a14:19little bit like that bar game of what's14:20different between these two pictures.14:24>> Yeah.14:25>> Jud spots, if you'll notice, uh Dr. Nat,14:29played by Jeremy Rener right here is14:31gone, but his bag is here.14:38>> Joink.14:45Yeah.14:48>> Yeah.14:49>> He notices the bag is still here. That's14:52interesting.14:53>> He goes, "Oh, yes, it's a doctor's bag."14:56And there was a fresh drink here. And14:58that means Dr.Nat is there in the bar15:02and is caught having a liquid lunch.15:05Enter Jeremy Rener who he claims is just15:08>> serves some lunch. Jeremy cracks me up15:10when he came in. He's like, "Okay, so I15:12figure this guy is just like the saddest15:14sack in the universe." This is and and I15:17said, "Yeah, that's basically it." And15:19then he brought kind of a physicality to15:23it and kind of like a bumbling nature15:25that I think all the other actors, a lot15:28of whom have done a lot of comedy work,15:31um, were really really surprised by how15:34funny Jeremy Runner was. I don't think15:36anyone kind of expected that. We asked15:37permission to use his face in the15:40running hot sauce, but then we just kind15:42of ignore the fact that Jeremy Rener15:44exists as a celebrity in this universe15:46and he's he's just an actor playing a15:48doctor in this one. Let's see if we can15:50actually find cuz this would be where it15:52is, but I don't I don't see it. It's not15:55this.15:57It's not this.16:00It's not here. I don't think so. I think16:02it's tucked away somewhere deep deep.16:04Because I remember I spent a lot of time16:05in the edit room freeze framing and16:07seeing if I could find it. You would16:09think it would be in the hot sauce16:10thing, but somehow it's not. Anyway,16:12some anyone spots it, they win a prize.16:14>> Get you a bottle of the renting hot hot16:17sauce.16:21>> N I I can come over later if if you want16:24to talk.16:25>> I didn't I don't think Yeah. Yeah. I16:27don't think I'd prefer that. I'd prefer16:29not that. All of the suspects in this16:32are members of the congregation of the16:35parish. And each one of them is kind of16:38in a different way under the sway of16:41Josh Barllin's character, Monscior Wixs,16:44who has a very kind of it's us against16:47the world. We're under siege. We're in16:49the castle together. We have to fight16:51back against the world and defend16:52ourselves type view of of Christianity.16:55He's kind of exploited weaknesses in16:57each one of them to draw them in to kind16:59of radicalize each one of them and draw17:01them in closer to him. Jeremy plays a17:03character whose wife who was the center17:05of his universe has just left him and17:08Wix kind of gets inside his head and17:10starts kind of drawing out that17:11bitterness in Jeremy's character. So, it17:13is kind of a comic performance, but17:15there is a real hook of of of real dark17:18anger at the heart of it. And and Wix,17:21who's Josh Brolan's character, is very17:23much exploiting that in this movie. In17:25casting these movies, the vibe on set is17:28very important. I used to think we got17:29very lucky each time that we got a group17:31of actors who we didn't never had any17:33issues with like ego. Everyone loved17:36hanging out with each other. I think you17:37can tell in the movie, but it's17:39genuinely the case on set. These people17:40actually like each other. No one went17:42back to their trailers in between17:44setups. They would all just hang out17:45together and like play back gammon. It17:48felt like camp a little bit. And that's17:49been the case on all three of these17:51films. Now, having witnessed it a few17:52times, I I think it's not like we're17:54like doing some kind of dating service17:56casting process where we're selecting17:58personality types that will get along17:59cuz I'm not that smart. Honestly, it's18:01it's I think there's a certain element18:03of it where it's a self- selecting18:04process cuz we're going after movie18:06stars. We're going after people who are18:08all used to being number one out of the18:10call sheet and being the leads in their18:12own movies. And we're going to them with18:14ensemble parts in a true ensemble cast.18:17And that means anyone who says yes to18:19one of these movies is going to be cool.18:21And by cool, I mean is going to they're18:23not going to come on set with a big18:24movie star ego. They're going to come on18:26set for the only reason it makes sense,18:27which is that they genuinely want to be18:29part of the ensemble and feed off the18:31other actors energy and have that18:34experience. And so in that way, it's18:36been really nice. And it's been uh I18:38don't know, one of the joys for me is18:40getting to see all these talented actors18:41kind of come together and sort of, you18:44know, circle each other and feel each18:45other's energy out and then kind of18:47coales into this group by the end of the18:49shoot.18:49>> Ah, there it is. There's who you did it18:52with, huh?18:53>> Come on.18:54>> Cut him out like a cancer, you son of a18:57>> Tell him that.18:58>> Yeah.19:00So tonally, this movie is it's a little19:03bit darker than the previous ones, but19:04it's still a Benois Blanc mystery. And19:06so it still is funny and entertaining.19:09And that balance, it was really tricky19:11in the script. This is definitely the19:13hardest script I've ever had to write19:16it. And a lot of that was because of the19:18themes and the tone and trying to make19:20them feel like the humor was balanced19:23with the scary and the creepy moments19:25and that the themes felt like they had19:28weight but they didn't feel ponderous19:30and god forbid they didn't feel preachy19:32in one way or the other. Writing a19:34murder mystery is is a lot of work. It's19:35all well and good but that's kind of19:37like solving a cross word puzzle. The19:38real work of the script and the reason19:41it was actually really hard was19:43balancing those more delicate elements.19:45A big part of this movie is I mean these19:47are they're very layered. These are19:48movies that hopefully hold up to being19:50watched multiple times and they're19:52movies where every scene is kind of19:54working on a few different layers in19:56terms of planting things that when you19:58first watch it, you don't know you're19:59supposed to be paying attention to.20:00Hopefully the next time you watch it,20:02you're like, "Aha, that's when this20:04happened in plain sight and and it is20:06right there and they were playing fair20:07with me." It seems like these movies are20:09and they are they're planned out kind of20:11like to the nth degree and they're kind20:12of like jigsaw puzzles or mouse traps or20:14pick your metaphor but the the reality20:16is they're still movies and so when20:19you're writing and anyone who writes20:21knows this, you can do all the20:23outlining, you can do all the planning,20:25you can have it all set and then when20:27you actually do start typing the scenes20:29and the characters actually kind of come20:31to life and are just speaking through20:32you as you're talking, sometimes it will20:35feel very very wrong the thing that you20:37planned out in grand scheme and you you20:40learn over time to listen to that voice20:43when it feels wrong to follow the voice20:45of the character. And it's it's kind of20:48the most important thing to realize. And20:51I also know it because if I'm writing a20:53scene, if I'm really not enjoying20:55writing the scene, that will send my20:57antenna up and I'll stop and step back21:00and I'll try and think, okay, is it that21:03is it because there's something21:04fundamentally wrong with this and the21:06character is telling me, no, this isn't21:07the scene I want to be in. There's a21:09scene in the middle of the film I don't21:10want to spoil, but there's a very21:12pivotal scene with Josh's character. It21:14is a case where I had something entirely21:17different outlines for the movie and I21:21hit this scene and kind of realized as I21:24was typing it, it just started flowing21:26in a completely different direction and21:29I just followed it and it ended up being21:32kind of one of the pivotal scenes in the21:33movie. I know it's frustrating. I'm21:35talking around it. I don't want to spoil21:36it, but uh find me on the street, buy me21:39a beer. I'll tell you what scene it is.21:41But you you really do learn these are21:44still movies and they have to feel21:45alive. And the only way for them to feel21:47alive is to listen to the characters21:49when they're talking to you. I'm a big21:50outliner and that helps with stories21:52like this because I will spend the first21:5580% of the process just working in21:57notebooks and that lets me have kind of21:59a zoomed out like the Google map zoomed22:02out view of the story. So if I see I22:05have to pay something off here, I can22:07it's not like digging back in the22:09script. I can just flip back a few pages22:11and see in the outline, okay, that means22:12I have to plant something in this scene22:14that sets that up. And then when you're22:16actually shooting the scene, it's a22:17balancing act because you never want the22:20audience to be aware that obviously that22:22there are things that you're pointing22:24out. In fact, you want to do the22:26opposite. You want to have the scene22:27just play on a very surface level so22:30that the audience is fully engaged with22:33it in the first viewing and it's only on22:35on other viewings that they catch the22:37things. And that also is just a certain22:40amount of trust in the audience. It's22:41letting things happen in the background.22:42Not feeling like you have to you have to22:45put a spotlight on everything, but22:46trusting the audience is smart enough22:48that when they watch you another time22:50and they see it there, it'll it'll22:51connect. [clears throat]22:52>> Tell him that.22:53>> Yeah.22:54>> Son of a Killer priest.22:59>> Do you want to tease that there's a clue23:02in this?23:02>> No. Good ask.
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