Transcript of The Basement: Mitch Horowitz | Gandhi, Reagan, and the Occultists History Erased
The Why Files
0:00Today I'm talking with Mitch Horowitz.0:02When Mitch was a kid in Queens, he got0:04an astrology scroll from a vending0:06machine. Every adult around him said it0:08was nonsense.0:09>> No, every adult said it was nonsense.0:11Uh, adults also said the moon landing0:13was real. So,0:14>> he spent the 50 years since taking that0:16scroll seriously. He became a highly0:18respected editor at Penguin Random House0:21and won a pen award for writing the0:22history of the occult in America. Today0:25we're covering how occult Ideas got into0:26Ronald Reagan's speeches, Gandhi's0:28philosophy, and the dollar bill in your0:31wallet. I promise it's way weirder than0:34that. Plus, his new book, Esoterica, and0:37its formulas for tearing down your false0:38self.0:39>> Oh, I tore down my false self once.0:41Underneath was another me. Handsomemer,0:44bigger muscles, better credit. Yeah, I0:46missed that guy.0:47>> He also made a calm, friendly case that0:50I might be a left-hand path Satanist.0:53That one caught me by surprise. Stick0:56around after the episode. I'll pop back0:58in and untangle the conversation. And1:00it's very tangled. Let's go down to the1:03basement.1:10Morowitz, welcome to the basement.1:12>> Thank you, my man. Great to be here.1:13>> I'm excited. I am excited. Um, before we1:17get started, why is the occult guy on a1:19Zoom with the Hensen family? Oh,1:22[laughter]1:23I was doing a fundraiser for the1:24Philosophical Research Society and they1:28are an organization dedicated to1:30studying the esoteric that was founded1:32by the great occult scholar Manley P.1:34Hall. And I was told that a couple of1:38members of the Henen family were1:41interested both in supporting the center1:43and in my work and would I do some1:46sessions with them to talk over a cult1:48history and esoterica. I was delighted1:51course I'm a gym fan going back to1:53diapers and remaining uh today and I was1:56delighted to talk to them and they are1:58carrying the family flame.2:00>> Wow. I I thought I heard you talking2:02about never- ending stories. One of your2:04favorites.2:04>> Oh, tremendously so. Um Henson has such2:08an incredible ability to capture the2:12mythical in a way that entrances young2:15kids and adults alike. And at age 60,2:18I'm still finding folds within his work.2:20I just love the man.2:21>> Yeah. You could watch Dark Crystal. I2:23think it came out in 79 and you still2:24see things in it.2:25>> You still see things.2:26>> He was such a genius.2:27>> He worked so hard. And not only was2:30there technical excellence in everything2:32he did, but2:33>> he finds the inner meaning of myth and2:37he tells the story as an outer story,2:39but you capture all the esoteric lessons2:42and elements within Jim's work. I need2:45to revisit it now that I'm familiar with2:47yours because I I know I'm going to find2:49new stuff in there. Um,2:52so the the occult, excuse me, this this2:55is how I work. I just2:57>> The occult, does it start with the3:00Silver Moon Diner or does it start in3:02Mrs. Shapiro Sunday school class?3:04[laughter]3:05[gasps]3:05>> Probably it starts with Mrs. Shapiro's3:08Sunday school class in Belrose, Queens.3:11>> I remember Mrs. Shapiro telling us, uh,3:14Halloween, that's all a bunch of3:15nonsense. And I started thinking, no,3:17that's not really true. This is a3:19holiday with roots that go as as deep as3:22our own Abrahamic traditions, maybe3:25deeper. And my job as a kid, age eight3:29or nine, was to listen to people say3:31Halloween is nonsense. Was to listen to3:33people say, "Oh, newspaper astrology,3:36that's all bogus." Was to listen to3:37people say, "Don't pay attention to the3:39robed guru on MV Griffin." and ask why3:42why and I wanted to peel back the layers3:45and discover the history of these3:48things. Look, newspaper astrology, just3:51to take an example, it's an expression3:55of possibly the oldest religious3:58retention on earth. It goes back to the4:02third millennia BC, ancient Mesopotamia.4:05Our western astrology is not exactly4:09like the astrology being dealt with by4:11our primeval ancestors. But there are4:13some very serious similarities4:16symbolically, mechanically, in terms of4:19meaning. And I wanted to get at all that4:21a cynic will tell you, for example, oh,4:24astrology has lasted so long just4:26because humanity is a bunch of suckers.4:29That's ridiculous. Practices from the4:31ancient world have been discontinued by4:34the thousands. The reason we in the4:36Western world retain a version of4:39astrology is because it's pretty damned4:43accurate.4:44>> You still read Sally Brmpton?4:46>> I love [laughter] Sally Brmpton. And4:49with apologies to Mrs. Shapiro, who4:51taught me a lot and also had a habit of4:54banging me on the head with her ring4:55when I didn't get my Hebrew letters4:57correct, which was not infrequent. Um,4:59being challenged that way at a young age5:01when I had a taste for the esoteric was5:04in its way very refining. It put me on5:07my path.5:07>> What was it about the story about the5:09goat and a zazil that5:11>> oh5:11>> interested you? [laughter and gasps]5:13>> You know, it's interesting. You you you5:15find within the Abrahamic faiths a huge5:19amount of material that we would label a5:21cult. stories of giants and spiritual5:24messengers and things that we today call5:27demons, a term that we're conditioned to5:29be frightened of. Azazelle being one of5:32them to whom the Hebrews would make5:33sacrifices in the desert. And what5:37you'll find if you turn back the pages5:39of scripture is a catalog of occult and5:42esoteric topics. Not just5:43straightforward monotheism, although5:46that's part of it, but you find5:47monotheism coexisting with a world of5:50myth and wonder that would be at home in5:52any Jim Henson story. And for that5:55matter, not all ancient Jews themselves5:58were monotheistic. There were many Jews6:01living in that region of the world who6:03practiced polytheism. We know this6:06because they adopted names of gods other6:09than what we call Yahweh or Jehovah. And6:12eventually Judaism developed into a6:15faith of monotheism. But at its most6:18primeval roots that wasn't the case. So6:21if you want to find the basis for the6:23occult, look at our most ancient6:25traditions, the ones that we stand on.6:27>> I love the um the theory that that Moses6:30could have been Aquonatan. Have you6:32heard that one?6:32>> Yes. Oh, of course. And Sigman Freud of6:35all people, the great rationalist, took6:36that very seriously. He in his very last6:40book Moses and Monotheism uh propounded6:44on that theory and um people would be6:48surprised if they turn back the pages of6:50Freud. He's supposed to be a great6:51rationalist and he was a great6:53rationalist. But what we as a culture6:55forget is that rationalism is not6:57conclusion. It's process. Rationalism is7:00methodological replication. So in Freud,7:03the great rationalist, you will find a7:06man who was deeply interested in dream7:08telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, and even7:11delayed the publication of some of his7:13some of his papers on these subjects to7:16avoid public opinion fallout. Get7:19yourself a copy of the collected works7:21of Freud. You'll find several deeply7:24heartfelt and intellectually rigorous7:27papers on occult topics. that stuff was7:29left out of my psychology courses in7:32school that his interest in sigh7:34>> why do you think why do you think that7:36was done why keep that from us7:38>> well Freud's biographer an Englishman7:40named Ernest Jones was very concerned7:44that Freud's interest in parasychology7:46would prove compromising to his efforts7:49to shape psychoanalysis into a7:52recognized medical science so he had a7:56hand in the early compilation of Freud's7:59papers. He had a decisive hand in our8:03understanding of Freud as a biography,8:06but he didn't fully represent Freud the8:09man. And our notion of psychoanalytic8:14history is too simplistic. We see Jung8:16as the occult one and Freud as the8:18materialist one. It wasn't true at all.8:21Jung was every bit an empiricist and8:23Freud was every bit interested in the8:26esoteric, extending to alternate8:28histories of Moses, extending to a a a8:31very rigorously worked through theory of8:35clairvoyance passing in between the8:37psychoanalyst8:39and the patient. And some of this8:42material, as I mentioned, was withheld8:44from publication until after Freud's8:46death. It does all now appear in the8:49collected works of Freud, but we tend to8:52think in categories rather than content.8:55And we think of Freud in the materialist8:58category. So, we tend not to see what's9:01in front of our own eyes.9:02>> When you think about your medical9:03history, you assume somebody somewhere9:06has the whole picture. But that's not9:07usually how it works. I've got lab PDFs9:10buried in three different email9:11accounts. a doctor from 2019 who has no9:14idea what my doctor from 2022 found and9:17a filing cabinet of paperwork that9:18nobody, including me, has ever actually9:20cross-referenced. [music] That's what9:22excites me about Superpower. It's their9:24job to connect the dots. One annual9:26blood draw, over 100 biomarkers across9:2921 categories, heart, liver, thyroid,9:32hormones, metabolic health,9:33inflammation, nutrients, the works.9:36That's roughly 10 times what a standard9:38physical checks. But here's the part9:39that actually solves my paperwork9:41problem. It all lands in one dashboard9:43alongside your old records and your9:45wearable data from Aura, Whoop, or Apple9:47Health. Suddenly, your history isn't9:49scattered. It's a timeline. From there,9:51you get an AI powered action plan, a9:53care team you can message any time, and9:55a superpower score plus biological age,9:58so you can watch your numbers move over10:00time instead of forgetting they exist.10:02And Konier's clinics charge $10 to10:04$100,000 for this kind of oversight.10:07Superpower runs $199 a year and [music]10:09it's HSA and FSA eligible. Stopping your10:12own health history to your inbox. Take10:14control of your health with Superpower.10:16For a limited time, our listeners get10:18$20 off to unlock their new health10:20intelligence. Head over to10:21superpower.com and use code basement for10:24$20 off your 199 superpower membership.10:27Now, after you sign up, they'll ask you10:28how you heard about superpower. Tell10:30them the basement sent you.10:32>> Yeah, that's interesting that you bring10:34that up. is so much power goes into the10:36hands of the biographer, the translator,10:39whether it's ancient epic poems or or10:42just tremendous10:43>> psychoanalysis, they have a lot of10:45power.10:47Yeah.10:47>> In fact, I often caution people, you10:49show me a traditionalist and I'll show10:51you a modernist who's just not aware of10:53it. Because the wisdom literature that10:56reaches us today, it's almost always11:00translations of translations of11:01translations written in an original11:04language that most of us cannot11:06decipher. And in fact, in most cases, we11:09don't even have the originals, even11:11extending to the Renaissance, which in11:14terms of the arc of human history was11:15five minutes ago. We're in a very11:17disadvantageous position in terms of11:20understanding what the ancients were11:21thinking about. We have been reached by11:24threads. We have been reached by11:25fragments. So, people need to be very11:28careful about where they draw the line11:30between what's traditional, what's the11:32real thing versus what are modern11:35novelties. More often than we know,11:37we're dealing with modern novelties11:39>> and the translation of the translation.11:41That's really a tradition of the11:42esoteric anyway, isn't it?11:45>> It's it's it's a tradition of the whole11:47human story to know ourselves and so11:50much of the literature that reaches us,11:52whether it's scriptural, whether it's11:55hermetic, which is the philosophy that11:58was written down in the final stages of12:00ancient Egypt. It's passed through so12:02many hands of a tablet right behind me12:04there. Oh, brilliant, [laughter]12:06brilliant.12:06>> As above, so below.12:07>> As above, so below. Uh, these12:11works of hallowed wisdom literature have12:14passed through so many centuries and in12:16some cases millennia of translation that12:20we really don't have a full reckoning of12:24what's gotten inserted along the way12:26because translators build upon what is12:29given to them. They sometimes represent12:32different power centers, different12:33faiths, different schools, and they will12:36insert sympathetic material. So, we have12:38to tread very carefully before declaring12:41what is the truth with a capital T.12:43>> Isn't that rule 101?12:46>> Is it?12:47>> Is it?12:48>> It's in there.12:50>> Ask constantly, how do I know that's12:52true?12:52>> Yes. And my God, let that be your sword12:56and shield through life. How do I know12:59that's true? We live in a culture of I13:02heard it somewhere and peel back just13:05one layer on that and you'll start to13:08ask really vital questions. I mean, my13:12god, I've had incidences happen in my13:15own apartment building and people can't13:17agree the next day on what transpired,13:19much less what transpired millennia ago.13:22>> We really just have to keep asking13:24ourselves, how do I know that's true?13:26What's the source of that quote? And13:28this is true in mainstream history as13:30well. I'll come upon a quote by Thomas13:32Edison, for example. I'll look for the13:35quote, it doesn't exist. Y13:36>> I'll look for a quote by Arthur Conan13:38Doyle. It doesn't exist. Someone made it13:41up. Someone repeated it. Happens with13:43William James. These are all modernist13:45figures.13:46>> These are these are people who who wrote13:48and and spoke in English. and and and13:52and my god, you know, they were living13:54and functioning 150 years ago.13:56>> You go through Bartletts and half of13:58that's they didn't say that13:59>> baloney, right?14:00>> And one has to keep asking that14:02question. How do I know that's true? And14:04in the current spiritual culture, I'm14:06always telling people, verify things,14:08not just in some rhetorical way. When14:11someone tells you, yes, verify things,14:14and when you agree with me, come back14:15and we'll get along just fine. Verify.14:18It falls to every generation of seekers14:20to verify things for themselves. Yes,14:22depend upon the best sources that we14:24have available, but don't stop there and14:27keep peeling back that onion.14:30>> So, Silver Moon, paint the picture.14:33Where was the Silver Moon Diner in14:34Queens?14:35>> Oh, that was uh in Eastern Queens. Okay.14:38in the town of Belrose where I grew up14:41uh on Union Turnpike just before it14:44>> transforms magically into Marcus Avenue.14:47Yes. When you hit14:48>> Long Island,14:49>> I know it very well.14:50>> Right. The invisible line of demarcation14:53and14:53>> this is Nassau County. That's fact.14:56>> Right. And I grew up in that14:58neighborhood in eastern Queens. Subways15:00don't go there.15:01>> Nope. way out uh in the I suppose as as15:06as far out east as you can go and still15:08be in New York City. And that was the15:10family gathering spot. That was the15:12neighborhood gathering spot. And this15:14was the 1970s. And so the real magic was15:17at the at the lobby entrance where you15:21would find the machine where you could15:23insert a dime and get an astrology15:25scroll or have your bio- rhythm read.15:28>> Oh, that's right. You put your finger on15:30the thing. Yeah. They didn't have a Zar15:32machine, but all but all but you know,15:34they had the computer dating machine. I15:36remember you could take the form, fill15:38out, you know, what you're comfortable15:40with, what you like, and meet your meet15:42your perfect mate. Probably no better or15:44worse than anything we do today. And uh15:46for me, it was just magic. That's where15:48I wanted to hang out. When I got my15:50little dime star scroll at the Silver15:53Moon Diner and I saw these magical signs15:57and sigils of Aquarius and Mercury and16:00the sun and I wanted to know where did16:03this come from and I learned that you as16:07I mentioned these are some of the oldest16:09religious retentions on earth. And just16:11think of it our primeval ancestors in16:14Mesopotamia their system was different.16:16The night sky looks different because16:18the earth wobbles on its axis. But I16:21tell you, some of those signs and16:23symbols mean the same thing to us today16:26>> in the 21st century as it did to our16:28ancient ancestry in Mesopotamia. That's16:31extraordinary. That's sacred language.16:34>> And it's remarkable to me that you can16:37go through the Western world, ask anyone16:39you meet, what's your sun sign? And not16:42only will they know, but they'll be able16:43to tell you something about it. Whether16:45they profess belief or not, I fall to my16:48knees in front of that. That's a16:49tradition that extends back thousands of16:51years.16:52>> Even if we are skeptical about16:55astrology, we just can't help ourselves.16:57It's it's it's wired into us.16:59>> I'll tell you something funny. Uh17:01there's an esoteric scholar, Richard17:02Smolley, who's been an enormous17:04influence on me. Several years ago, he17:06and I were doing a dialogue over Zoom,17:09and I said to him, "Richard, why has17:12astrology remained popular after all17:16these millennia and centuries?" And he17:18paused and said, "Well,17:21because it's pretty accurate."17:23>> Brilliant.17:23>> And I stand by that. And there's no way17:25to know it's accurate unless one studies17:27it. And of course, the cynics who are17:29ready to say, "Nonsense. I don't expect17:31them to have studied it." But here's17:32what the cynics don't know. the experts17:36upon whom they are relying they haven't17:39studied it either. This is one of these17:42I heard it somewhere concepts that we17:44call rational because we misunderstand17:48rational as endpoint versus process.17:52It's an art. Is it always accurate?17:54Certainly not. Are there great17:56differences between the east and the17:57west? There are. And those mechanical18:00differences warrant understanding. But18:02as a thumbnail typology of personality,18:06it's remarkable. That's why it's lasted.18:09It's the last place that journalists18:11will look. It's the last place that18:13social scientists will look.18:16Every Halloween when I start to get the18:18phone calls about the article, why is18:20astrology still so popular? Why is tarot18:23still so popular? The answer that18:25they're always fishing for is economic18:27uncertainty.18:29Uncertainty about the future of the18:30world. as if there's ever been a18:32generation that hasn't experienced that.18:34The last place they'll look and the18:36place that I insist upon looking among18:38others is Verity.18:42>> Um,18:45you hit on something that it's in your18:47book I want to ask you about. Before we18:48do that, didn't your grandfather have an18:51opinion about what was on your scroll?18:53[laughter]18:55my grandfather who is the very practical18:58manager of a flower shop in Rockefeller19:01Center.19:01>> It's good honest work.19:03>> Yeah, it's good honest work. It's good19:04honest work. And he worked hard and he19:07earned his retirement in Florida. That19:08was the dream and he earned it. I was19:11reading from my Star Scroll and he said,19:13"Does it also say you're a sucker?"19:15>> Perfect.19:16>> And I understand. I understand. But kids19:20have to rebel. And I said, I'm not19:23accepting that just because an adult19:25figure says it. In fact, because an19:28adult figure says it, I'm going to push19:30and probe. And I had funny experiences19:33as a kid taking out books of astrology19:36and Pennsylvania Dutch folklore from the19:39Belrose public library. Remarkable19:42experiences. I remember when I was a19:43kid, I took out one book in particular19:46of Pennsylvania Dutch folklore and the19:48center fold of the book was a pentagram19:51and it had these little phrases dotted19:54around it. Pennsylvania Dutch tradition19:56and you're supposed to close your eyes,19:58hover a pin over it and bring the pin20:00down on your fortune. Well, I did this.20:02I brought the pin down and it said a20:04letter. You will receive a letter. I was20:06age nine. I didn't get many letters. The20:09next day, a letter arrived and it was an20:12overdue book notice from the public20:14library.20:15>> That's how it works. [laughter]20:17Synchronicities.20:18>> It it it gave me pause at age nine. I20:21still have pause today. Um but you get20:23little green lights like that and it20:25deepens your curiosity.20:26>> I love it. So, you just said that every20:29generation has these same um anxieties.20:32In your book, I think you mentioned that20:34every generation feels like they're on20:36the precipice20:36>> always. But we're different because we20:39have a sense that we're in the matrix.20:42>> Yeah. It seems to me I I I I20:46>> I encourage people to be very careful20:48with apocalyptic talk because every20:50generation feels that it's living on the20:53brink. And if you look at our generation20:55with all our crises and so forth,20:57>> my god, compared to what people went20:59through, say in World War I, we're not21:02living in that world at this present21:04juncture. And we have to be very21:06thoughtful and we have to be very21:07careful about these things because every21:09generation feels like it is just poised21:13on a cliff's edge. You'll find that21:16throughout religious history.21:18Abrahamic religions, Judaism,21:20Christianity, Islam, they're messianic21:22traditions. And we have almost21:25programmed into us this messianic notion21:27that everything's going to come to an21:29end and then there'll be an aftermath.21:31We even have a secular religion around21:33that called Marxism.21:34>> Sure. which is an Abrahamic religion21:36without God. It's a materialist faith21:38that the change agent will be the21:40working class and then afterwards will21:42come something that someone might call21:44nirvana or or heaven or the afterlife21:47and that we call revolution. Whatever21:49comes after it, we don't know, but we're21:51sure that there is this turning point.21:53Anyway, we who live in the west and come21:55from the Abrahamic traditions, we have21:58this kind of messianic or apocalyptic22:00worldview baked into us. Someday it will22:03presumably occur. But I ask people to22:06take it easy with that point of view22:09because every generation occupies it.22:11Our generation has something different22:13going on which I'm very interested in.22:16And that is this notion that we're22:18living in an airsat reality. And I think22:21there's something to that because of how22:23universally felt it is. It surpasses22:26culture. Now dig this. Several years ago22:29the Barbie movie came out. My reckoning22:32is that roughly the first 20 minutes of22:34that movie is the finest ever22:37popularization of Gnostic themes. The22:40idea that we're living under a false sun22:42or a false god.22:43>> Yes. I hadn't considered that, but yes.22:46>> Barbie starts thinking about her own22:48death. Yes.22:49>> And then she realizes, I'm not really22:51here at all. I'm not living in a real22:53world. This is artifice. And so she22:55begins her journey22:56>> beyond the veil.22:57>> Beyond the veil. Yes. Now, we've had22:59wonderful movies like that before.23:01Matrix, Truman Show, but this was23:03different. That movie was a hit23:05worldwide. It was a hit in Saudi Arabia.23:08It was a hit in China. Two radically23:11different societies. Saudi is a23:13religiously conservative society. China23:15is an officially atheistic society. And23:18everybody got it. Everybody got it.23:22There are people around the world today23:24who don't get Star Wars. We think those23:26themes are universal. They're not. If23:29one really speaks globally, there are23:31Chinese audiences among whom Star Wars23:33has tested poorly. They're asking23:35questions. Does, you know, why does this23:37man live with an ape? And so forth and23:39so on. It doesn't translate always.23:42Barbie, this Gnostic themed movie about23:45a young woman who starts contemplating23:47mortality and realizes, I'm not even23:49living a real existence. It spoke to23:52people around the world. There's a scent23:54trail of some universal truth there. And23:58I think that we as a global culture, if24:01we agree on nothing else, we agree that24:03something doesn't feel quite right. We24:05feel like we're living in this airsat's24:07reality.24:08>> And as a historian, other generations24:10didn't feel this.24:11>> I can't say other generations globally24:13felt this. Of course, people didn't24:15necessarily feel things globally at all24:17because we weren't an interconnected24:19world. But here we are today. We're an24:21interconnected world. We have wildly24:23different perceptions of reality. First,24:26I'm popular in China, then I'm censored24:28in China, and these things shift with24:29the winds. But I'd be hardressed to find24:33somebody who didn't encounter media like24:37The Matrix or Truman Show or Barbie and24:41say, "Oh, yeah, I get it. I relate to24:44that. There's a reason for that. There's24:45something archetypal there."24:47>> Do you think there's something to that?24:49Do you subscribe? You do.24:50>> I do. I do.24:52>> I'm haunted by the idea. I I couldn't24:54possibly venture specifics. I'm haunted24:56by simulation theory. If one reads um25:00Nick Bosro's original paper on25:02simulation theory,25:03>> why haunted? Why? What's wrong? Why not?25:06>> Because the logic is impeccable. And25:08it's possible that we are made up of25:12dots and dashes rather than DNA. And25:15it's all programming in a certain sense25:17or coding at the end of the day. And I'm25:21haunted by the possibility that the25:22reason whynosticism as a faith has25:26really come roaring back into our world25:28and is probably the most popular of all25:31the we'll say esoteric spiritual25:34traditions right now in the 21st century25:36is we all relate to it. We all have a25:39feeling that we're not living as we25:42ought to be living. And I think that25:44that's absolutely correct. Take as an25:45example around the world today. Everyone25:49agrees that war is terrible. There25:52should never be another war. It solves25:54nothing. And yet we keep having them. We25:56keep having them. Yeah.25:58>> And we don't live according to our own26:01professed values. We sit in a chair.26:03>> We read the daqing. We read the26:06biatitudes. We read the dharmapata.26:08Right on. That's the way to live. I get26:11it. We get up from the chair. Everything26:13is lost. Everything is lost. There is a26:17chasm between conviction and conduct and26:20it is global. We're broken. We're broken26:24as a human community. If we weren't26:26broken,26:28Confucious would be enough to save us.26:31Christ would be enough to save us.26:32Nietze would be enough to save us.26:34Marcus Aurelius would be enough to save26:36us. We have it26:37>> and we all agree with it and we don't26:39live by it. It does suggest that there's26:41a brokenness in human nature that's very26:43real. I always have three books on my26:46nightstand. One is Marcus Aurelius, one26:47is the Bible, and one is whatever sci-fi26:49I happen to be reading. But but that's26:51absolutely true. The reason I asked26:52about previous generations is we talk26:55about the Gnostic texts come up all the26:56time on this show.26:58>> So the Apocryphon27:01if the book of Philip,27:04>> book of Enoch, I mean these are ancient27:05texts. Did they know something27:07>> then that now we're just all learning as27:11a species?27:13I think that the Gnostics who like the27:16hermeticists existed in in late27:19antiquity, they were part of a world27:22that was just transforming into dominant27:25monotheism27:27and they were resisting27:31monotheism because for them it didn't27:35cover the basis of man's predicament.27:37The sin and salvation model was27:40insufficient. They sensed something that27:42we sense about this terrible, terrible27:44gap between conviction and conduct. And27:48the Gnostics came to the conclusion we27:51are living under a false god in a false27:55world with false perceptions. And that's27:58why things never seem to get better. And28:01they too harbored some of the28:03apocalyptic thinking which I think is28:05intrinsic to our western or Abrahamic28:08point of view.28:09>> I hang on. And I think it's universal.28:11There was a Japanese28:12>> author who said, "Every one of us deep28:14down in our hearts is waiting for the28:16end of the world."28:17>> Well, I think there's truth to that28:19because we are also so frustrated with28:22the routine sameness of our lives. I28:26remember when Y2K was popular as a28:29subject, people would talk about it and28:31I would sense that28:34>> they were enjoying it.28:35>> Yes. It was this universal snow day and28:39I would say, "Well, wait a minute. You28:40don't really want to see supply lines28:42get disrupted. You don't really want to28:44see it tough to refill baby formula and28:47prescriptions and diapers. None of us28:50want to see that." And their attitude28:52was always, "Yeah, but we're so hungry28:55to exit routine." And I really28:58understand that. I feel the desperate.29:00>> Fort Knox, everybody's heard of it.29:02Supposedly, it holds over 400,000 tons29:04of US [music] gold. But the thing is,29:06the last full independent audit of that29:09vault happened in 1953.29:11Since then, we've gotten photo ops,29:13supervised [music] walkthroughs, and a29:15whole lot of trust us, never any outside29:18auditors, no full inventory count, or no29:21way for anybody outside government to29:22actually verify what's down there.29:24That's not a conspiracy theory. Nobody's29:26checked. And when the backbone of the29:28world's reserve currency rests on a29:29promise nobody can verify, it's worth29:31asking why your own retirement should29:33rest on paper, [music] too. Physical29:35metal in your name doesn't need an29:37audit. You can just hold it. Call &29:40Press Medals and get their free investor29:42kit. It walks you through moving29:43physical gold or silver into an IRA or29:45401k tax and penalty-free or buying29:48directly with cash. You'll also get a29:50free portfolio review. No pressure, no29:52hard sell, just a straight conversation29:54about what you're holding. And right29:56now, Golden Crest running a bonus up to29:58$25,00030:00in free silver on qualifying purchases.30:02Go to golden crestmetals.com/thefiles30:04or text the word files to metals. That's30:0663825 [music] to receive free investor30:09kit, a free portfolio review with no30:11obligation or hard sale and on30:13qualifying purchases up to $25,000 in30:16bonus silver. All that when you go to30:17goldenessmetals.com/yfiles30:19or text the word files to medals30:22>> that people experience with routine. And30:25so a turning point, apocalism, Y2K, call30:29it whatever you wish. It appeals to30:31people because it seems like it's an30:33exit from this grinding ordinariness30:37that that we're very often unhappy in.30:41>> I love a disaster movie. I love a30:43apocalyptic movie. I think um it makes30:47us feel like we're part of a grand30:49opera.30:50>> Yeah. Wouldn't you rather go out with an30:52asteroid impact than just old and sick?30:55>> I see it. Look, I see it right here in30:57Vegas, a town that I love, you know.30:59>> Um, there's Excalibur, there's Luxor,31:03there's Mandalay Bay. And I like it. I31:05like it because people are so eager to31:09escape wrote and routine life. And not31:12everybody is going to visit Luxor and31:14not everybody's going to visit Middle31:16Europe. And not everybody can afford to.31:18And the snobs. You know, there's a31:21recreation of it. And people from all31:22over love it. But it also speaks to the31:25hunger that we feel to get away from31:28four square existence31:30>> and so much of the lowgrade depression31:33and anxiety that we feel, the addictions31:36>> is a response to that. And so we grock31:39sometimes to apocalism because if31:41nothing else, it's an exit ramp.31:43>> Yeah. I'm glad that you don't hate on31:46Las Vegas like so many people do.31:47>> I love it. Me too.31:48>> I think it's just wonderful. the31:50snobs. I I look at these things and I'm31:53enchanted. We have a view from our hotel31:55at Mandalay Bay of Luxor. I've been to31:58Luxor going back to Luxor in a year. I32:01love Egypt and I love the Egyptian32:02people. But32:03>> and it's kitsy but it's great.32:04>> Yeah. Yeah.32:05>> And there's a Nathan's in Luxor by the32:07way. So32:08>> which one? The Egyptian or the32:09>> Egyptian? [laughter]32:10I've been I've been to McDonald's in the32:12Egyptian Luxor and it's not bad. Let me32:14recommend it. Yes.32:16Um, there's a great scene in your book32:19of at the Belrose Jewish Center where32:22your rabbi shows up wearing a toupe.32:24>> Yeah.32:24>> Can you tell us what happened with your32:26sister?32:26>> Mhm.32:27>> I dig this story. I've told it several32:29times. I tell it because I don't want32:32people to feel hemmed in by their32:33subcultures.32:34>> Mhm. Um, back in the good old days when32:37I was a little kid growing up in a32:39traditional Jewish family, we attended32:41Belrose Jewish Center and it became the32:44scandal of the neighborhood. If only32:47these were our problems today. This is32:49what passed for a problem back in those32:51days that the rabbis started wearing a32:52toupe. And so people had discussions32:55about whether this was appropriate.32:57Isn't a spiritual leader supposed to32:59model self-acceptance? It wasn't put33:01quite that nicely on 251st Street, but33:04that was the basic argument. And one day33:07we were on a receiving line after33:09services where, you know, people will33:11shake hands with the clergy, have a nice33:12week, thank you. And my sister, my older33:15sister, four years older, uh, was in33:17front of me and um, oh my god, I still33:19feel embarrassed talking about it.33:21>> I'm embarrassed waiting for it.33:22>> Yeah, I feel it like I did when I was33:2410. And she said to him, "Don't you33:27think that's a little ridiculous?" And33:29he said, "What?" And uh she said, "The33:32Dupe." And through very tight lips, he33:35said, "I don't think that's any of your33:37affair." And I still feel mortified33:40talking about it. But I look back on33:42that and I tell that story for a reason.33:45He was right. He was right.33:46>> Of course he was.33:47>> Yeah. I feel very strongly that people33:50in our alternative spiritual culture,33:53which is where I'm from, which is where33:54I spend most of my time, we get hemmed33:57into orthodoxies the way everybody else34:00does. We flee orthodoxies only to34:02recreate them and slam the door behind34:04us as quickly as possible. What I'm34:07really trying to say to people is just34:09as in ancient myth, strangers, spiritual34:14messengers, gods would sometimes wander34:17the earth disguised as vagabons and34:20people who invited them in would receive34:23extraordinary gifts. So do solutions34:26reach us disguised as strangers. Things34:29that we are ready to reject might be34:33what we need. So if somebody says I'm34:35spiritual, well that may be spiritual34:38means extra physical, but the world we34:42live in can bring you solutions in ways34:45that are disguised as those unbidden34:49vagabons. So I beg people, I beg people,34:52think for yourself, decide for yourself.34:54Don't turn something away because it34:56doesn't fit your cultural image or your34:58mind's eye image of what is supposed to35:01be right. Don't get fixated on the35:03example. I choose the example because35:05it's true and it's particularly vivid.35:08Here was a spiritual leader being talked35:10down because he did something that the35:12neighborhood didn't think was physically35:14appropriate. The neighborhood was wrong.35:16The neighborhood was wrong. I encourage35:19the individual to find his or her own35:21solutions and to make ethical35:24determinations about them yourself. So,35:28if you're interested in natural35:29medicine, bravo. The solution that35:32you're seeking may come in the form of35:34that little pill. Or if you insist that35:37you don't go for any of this woo woo35:39hocus pocus, well, the solution that35:41you're seeking may come in the form of35:43Reiki or some other energy medicine.35:45Just be flexible. That's what I'm trying35:48to get across.35:49>> Does your sister remember that scene?35:51>> I don't know whether she recalls that35:55explicitly. And if she doesn't, she will35:57let me know.35:59>> She has quite an influence on you. early36:01on. No, with was she did you bring home36:03tremendously? So, I'm I'm indebted to36:05her for the path that I'm on because36:07here we were two kids of different ages36:10growing up in the 1970s and she would36:12bring home paperbacks from school on36:15Bigfoot and Flying Saucers and ESP and36:18the paperbacks of the the the the poor36:21belleaguered Carlos Castanada, which I36:23started reading when I was a kid.36:25I'm astounded that Castanada is still36:27such a subject of controversy in our36:30culture. Can we not understand allegory?36:33The the stories that he told were not36:36forensically verifiable. That is36:38correct. Carlos was a trickster and he36:40created a past for himself. That is36:43correct. Do we not understand allegory?36:46Did Christ not teach in parables?36:48>> I was just going to say36:49>> we bring this over literalism to Carlos36:51and we dismiss him. There's tremendous36:53wisdom in those books, particularly the36:55first one. And I started reading Carlos36:57as a little kid, thanks to my sister36:59Nina, and that too helped put me on my37:01path.37:02>> Tell me about the um37:06how the how the your parents divorce37:08kind of became an engine for you.37:12>> Sure.37:12>> As personal as you want to be.37:14>> No, no, I I'm I'm37:15>> And we you know, we we had talked37:18earlier about being on similar paths.37:19Yeah.37:20>> I went through the same thing.37:21>> Huh. I went through the same thing.37:23>> It was a traumatic time of life.37:25Everyone's been through trauma. I have37:27nothing special to claim in terms of my37:29tale of woe. I was just speaking with my37:31wife this morning. You look from one37:32mountain range to the other in Las37:34Vegas. It's a city filled with people37:36who have undergone trauma. It's part of37:38all our lives. I was 15. Oh, the family37:42was just torn apart by financial37:44disaster. My dad, as we were discussing,37:48>> 15. Okay, that's hard. He had been a37:50legal aid attorney defending the poorest37:52of the poor in New York City. Very tough37:54work. Long story short, he went into37:57private practice. The private practice37:58failed. It threw our family into38:00financial turmoil. The turmoil boiled38:03over into divorce. It was a very painful38:05time. And it was no one person's fault.38:07He was made the fall guy for a lot of38:09stuff, but I never thought that was38:10fair. And with the divorce came a whole38:14change of life because look we were38:16going to an Orthodox synagogue where the38:18sexes were separated by seating and we38:21started going to a reformed synagogue38:23signaled a big change in our religious38:24life but uh in addition to that I began38:28looking for spiritual solutions and when38:30I say spiritual again I mean extra38:33physical. I do believe that we occupy38:35this world we can see this tactile world38:38and a a world that we cannot see a38:40transpersonal world and I came to38:43believe very strongly not only in the38:45power of petitionary prayer with which I38:48had extraordinary experiences as a kid38:50continue to today but I came to believe38:54that there are causitive properties to38:57our psyche and that which we believe our39:00emotionalized thoughts our thought39:02pictures have a selective quality to39:05them and that became a foundational part39:09of my belief and I nurtured that from39:13age 15 up through today testing it,39:16probing it, trying it, denying it,39:19fleeing it, coming back to it. And uh39:22nobody wants to repeat the suffering39:25that they have been through. But we all39:28would acknowledge that suffering created39:31the parts of ourselves that we consider39:33most refined.39:34>> Yeah.39:37>> I have one more question, but you39:39mentioned another rule that was um don't39:42make fun of people because you don't39:43know what they're going through.39:45>> And I do it all the time, may I39:47tell you? Me too.39:48>> And I'm so goddamned ashamed of myself.39:51>> And I say this because what else do we39:54have but transparency on the path?39:56Transparency, verification.39:58I look over at somebody, you know, I'm40:00seated next to on an airplane, I think,40:02oh, they're making noise, whatever. I40:04have no idea what that person is going40:07through. I have no idea that that person40:10might have a special needs child seated40:12two seats down from them. Yep.40:14>> And that they are going through things40:16that I have never had to go through. So,40:19for God's sake, can we just take it a40:21little easier on one another? Seems such40:23a simple statement, right? But its40:26profoundity appears in application. And40:27I'm always telling that to people. I40:30like at this point in my search very40:31simple things because first of all, we40:33won't try things unless they are simple.40:36And secondly,40:38the profoundity and the difficulty and40:41the complexity will not appear until we40:43try them. You know, we all love the40:45delic maxim know thyself. Sure, I agree40:48with that. Put it on my coffee mug. Nice40:50refrigerator magnet. But none of us40:52engage in it. You know, we all think we40:54know ourselves. We don't take it40:55seriously. We don't take seriously40:57self-observation.40:58We don't take seriously the dictim not41:00to lie. Again, here's this chasm between41:03conviction and conduct. Of course, lying41:05is terrible. Well, you know, peel back41:08the layers a little bit. When have I41:10lied in the past 10 hours, 24 hours,41:13what have you.41:14>> Another rule. Everybody lies.41:16>> Another rule. Yeah. And um41:18>> well, these rules, people need to read41:20these. They're rules to live by. And I41:22was telling you earlier that I believe41:25every single one of these and I fail at41:27quite a few of them41:29>> constantly. Constantly.41:30>> Like this requires work, vigilance.41:33>> Yeah. And it requires at certain moments41:37coming face to face with oneself and41:39feeling like you're a stranger to41:41yourself. And that aperture will close.41:43And then, you know, I reach for the TV41:45clicker and I, you know, reach for the41:47beer or the weed and that aperture will41:50close. But for God's sake, let it live.41:53Let it live for a few moments. Don't put41:56it in other words. In other words, just41:59let the remorse be there when you see42:02that gap between self and conduct. And42:06count on the fact that it'll go away and42:08don't worry about that. We're not built42:09to sustain it, but but don't throw it42:12away when it comes.42:13>> So, we're always defaulting back to42:16violating these rules. Is that how you42:18describe like just running one of the42:20programs, the 20 programs that we just42:22run it42:23>> when you42:25>> get angry at that person on the plane?42:26You're just running the program eight,42:27which is annoyed.42:29>> Absolutely. I came to realize at a42:31certain point that I probably have 2042:35total responses to life in one variation42:38or another. And there's a nightmare in42:40that. You know, we speak of free will.42:43I'm closer to a pullstring doll than I42:46am to a a figure of free will. I do42:48believe in free will, but free will42:50requires development. Decisionmaking42:53requires development. We hear all the42:55time that wars happen because human42:58beings choose to go to war. That's42:59nonsense. We don't choose anything. We43:03are the equivalent of automatons. We can43:06only speak of choice with development.43:09And that's a long, hard, arduous road.43:11I'm not sure it even ends anywhere very43:13promising. I think humanity's position43:16is is just disastrous. I think we're in43:19a very serious descent.43:21>> And I don't think there's anything that43:23I or anyone else can can do about that.43:27I mean, I ask people watching right now,43:30if they're watching this on a computer,43:31keep in mind all of us, all of us are43:35going to throw out that computer someday43:36and that lithium battery is going to43:38wind up in the backyard of some poor kid43:40somewhere who's going to get poisoned43:41groundwater because of that. And we know43:43that. Y43:44>> and we do it anyway.43:46>> Do it anyway.43:46>> That's our brokenness.43:48>> Yeah.43:49>> I couldn't decide if your book was43:51self-help or if it was a guide book to43:53the apocalypse.43:55>> Well, it's interesting. I worked for 2743:58years in corporate publishing and um44:02I met a lot of authors who ran from the44:04label self-help because they think it's44:06day class A. It's unseriousness. It's44:09the philosophy of the people. I embrace44:11the label self-help. I'm proud of that44:14label. Now, is it a guide to the44:16apocalypse? Yes, in the certain sense44:19because I believe that we are in a stage44:21of decline. Call it kalyuga. uh call it44:25uh sleep, call it automaticity,44:28uh call it u what the Gnostics called it44:31that we're we're living under a false44:33god or a false deity. There are44:36different terms for it, but to suggest44:39that we are beings of free will making44:42choices. I see evidence for that44:44nowhere. So, if that's the apocalypse,44:47then I would have to agree with that44:48characterization.44:49>> We're all running that one of those44:51programs. It's Yeah, it was startling to44:53read in your book. Um, before we go to44:56break and I want to talk about your44:57publishing career,44:59we're talking about your dad. Can we45:02tell me about Dad versus Sid?45:05[laughter]45:05Oh, wow. Well, I was very proud of dad45:08at age 12. Uh, dad ran for Congress on a45:13a district that bridges uh the Queens45:16Long Island border. It was that Union45:18Turnpike Marcus Avenue district. and uh45:22>> the Silver Moon District,45:24>> the Silver Moon District. And his45:28opponent was a standard machine45:30politician, not a bad guy, not a bad45:33guy, named Lester Wolf, who was the45:35chair of some subcommittee on narcotics45:36in Congress. And dad decided that uh45:40again, if only these were our problems45:43today,45:45>> better time. Dad decided that Sid45:47Vicious should never have been allowed45:48into this country because Sid supposedly45:52killed his girlfriend Nancy Spongen. I45:54don't know that that's true, but that's45:55certainly what history has recorded. Sid45:57never got his day in court because he45:59died of an overdose soon after. And I46:02loved Sid, but dad decided that he was46:06going to become the poster boy for46:08anarchy in our burrow. And people were46:11worried about crime. And dad, to his46:13credit, would not play the race card.46:15and instead he made Sid Vicious into oh,46:18I don't know, his campaign partner. And46:20so46:22he went around giving talks uh that46:25Lester Wolf, his opponent, should have46:26be held responsible for a known drug46:28addict entering our country and killing46:31his girlfriend in our fair city. And I46:33remember once he was speaking in front46:34of a group of grumpy Jewish war veterans46:37and he gave this talk and Lester Wolf46:39showed up late, not a smooth move. And46:43um he had no idea that dad was doing any46:45of this. Didn't know who Sid Vicious46:47was. [laughter] And so they started46:49screaming at him, "You let Vicious Sid46:51into this country." And46:53>> the the the presentation had to stop so46:56Lester Wolf could be told who Sid46:58Vicious was. But again, I I write very47:00lovingly, very admiringly about this.47:02>> Talk about the good old days when these47:04were our problems.47:05>> I the the title of the article was47:08brilliant. It was Dad Fought the Sex47:10Pistols and the Sex Pistols won. Yeah.47:12>> And now the song is in my head. It's47:13>> how it happened.47:14>> And we'll be right back.47:15>> There's a section in your book called47:18Cast Out.47:20>> 1997, you're fired the first two times47:22from your dream job.47:23>> Yeah.47:24>> Two years in and it's over.47:28>> What happened? What happened through47:30that that year?47:33Well,47:35I worked for many years in corporate47:37publishing and once upon a time I was47:41hired by a political press now defunct47:44at Simon and Schustster called the free47:45press and that place was flying high and47:48I was thrilled to be there. I could not47:52get arrested when I was there two years47:54and I just couldn't get agents to submit47:57to me the way that was necessary and47:59that chokes off your air supply in48:00publishing. You live and die by that.48:02So, you have to wait for submissions.48:04That was your role.48:05>> Oh, I would try to drum up books and I48:07drummed up some damn good ones and I'm48:08very proud of a lot of what I published48:10there. But you can only do so much of48:12that. I mean, you really need to be48:14getting a stream of submissions in. And48:16for various reasons, I found it very,48:18very difficult. And I'll never forget48:21it. It's painful to recount, but people48:23deserve to hear it because they've been48:25through things like this. And they'll48:27feel less alone if they hear it.48:30After about a year on the job, I came48:32back from lunch. This was the old days48:35before email ruled the roost and we48:36would still get uh phone messages on48:38those little pink scratch pads. There48:41were no little pink scratch pad messages48:43waiting for me. And my voicemail light48:45was not on. And so I quietly closed my48:49office door and I lay my head down on my48:52desk and I thought, I am going48:54to get fired. And within about a year48:57that transpired and it was scary as hell49:00and it was painful as hell because a lot49:02of people in publishing got fired. It's49:04a tough business and I lasted longer49:07than most. I continued to last for many49:09years after that. But I thought I am not49:13the guy who gets fired. I am the49:15achiever. That wasn't so. And that was49:18very tough. And so I started looking for49:21new jobs. I have no family money. I live49:24paycheck to paycheck. And let me tell49:26you, I got the highest level interviews.49:30John Kennedy Jr. interviewed me for a49:34political magazine he was running at the49:36time. Yeah. He offered me a job. He died49:38shortly thereafter in a very tragic49:40airplane crash. And he was a hell of a49:42good guy. Like49:43>> he was going to be he was going to be49:44mayor.49:44>> Yeah. And and I mean he's American49:47royalty. And you talk to him puts you49:49immediately at ease. Super easy to talk49:52to. was interested in cattle49:53mutilations. It might interest you and49:55your audience to know.49:56>> I'm interested in what happened on that49:58flight.49:58>> Yeah. Yeah. And so what a loss.50:02>> I had experience one after another like50:05that. Not where something tragic50:06occurred, but oh my god, I was in the50:08running for an arts and ideas editor at50:11the New York Times, interviewed with the50:13executive editor, Joseph Levelvelt.50:15Nothing. Um the editor of Harper's50:18magazine had a few too many one night.50:20Offered me a job. next day nothing. And50:24so, how does it feel when you come so50:28close to winning the gold and you get50:30nothing? You don't even get a bronze.50:32You get nothing. And I thought, I'm in50:34trouble and I've got to start going the50:36blue collar route. So, I just started50:38looking in what we used to call the50:39classified ads like everybody else. uh a50:43Backwater New Age publisher which has50:46gone through many different names50:47because it keeps getting bought by50:49different companies opened its doors to50:51me and I I went there.50:52>> What was it? Which publisher?50:54>> Well, it was known as Tarture Penguin50:57>> back in my day. We were Tarter Putinham,51:00then Tarter Penguin, then the51:01unpronouncable Tarter Perigee,51:04[laughter] and which every radio host51:06would call Tarter Perigree. And I'd be51:08like, "This was a great move." Anyway,51:11um it was a slightly down on its luck51:15new age press and I was coming from what51:18had been a very high-flying press where51:20everything we published would get51:22reviewed in the New Yorker and the New51:24York Review of Books and the New York51:25Times and so forth. These were different51:27days. And my friends thought I was51:29crazy. They said, "Don't go there." And51:31my attitude was, "No, I believe in a51:33yes. And I believe in walking through51:35open doors." And51:37>> you didn't feel like it was a step down.51:38>> Oh, it was definitely a step down.51:39>> Oh, it was. And I felt it intensely. I51:42mean, I went from, oh man, uh, Harvard51:46to a little correspondent school that51:48nobody has heard of. And it was a very51:51serious step down. But I swallowed the51:53ego and I swallowed the humiliation.51:56Lost a lot of friends. God save us from51:59our friends.51:59>> Why?52:00>> Why? Because I use the term friends. Uh,52:03resisting air quotes. In New York City,52:06friendships are based on usefulness.52:08Friendships are based on what can you do52:10for me?52:11>> Another rule is steal yourself when your52:14best friend betrays you.52:16>> For real?52:16>> For real.52:17>> For real.52:17>> Mhm.52:18>> Yeah. Yeah.52:19>> I work long days. I don't sleep as much52:21as I should. And for years, I could just52:24power through it. But as I've gotten52:25older, I've noticed the same routine52:27hits differently. Less energy, slower52:29recovery. I figured that was just aging.52:32But there may be more to it. The average52:34male testosterone has dropped about 1%52:36every year since 1980. So you're not52:38just getting older. You may be starting52:40from a lower baseline than the52:41generation before you. 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For a53:26limited time, our listeners get 50% off,53:29plus free shipping and three free gifts53:31at mengoarss.com.53:33That's menotoars.com for 50% off and53:36three free gifts when you check out.53:37After you purchase, they'll ask you53:39where you heard about them. Please53:40support our show and tell them we sent53:42you.53:43>> So, it was painful. Um, so I use the53:46term friends with qualification. Sure.53:48Oh, people dropped away from me. People53:50abandoned me. People would say, "How you53:53doing?" as though I was in the hospital53:54or something, [laughter]53:55>> right?53:56>> But I take seriously a yes. I take54:00seriously an open door. And remember,54:03messengers come desri disguised as54:06strangers.54:08>> Be flexible. Don't get stuck to your54:10mind's eye image of where you're going.54:12I started to rediscover the occult and54:16esoteric interests that I knew as a kid,54:19which I still had, but they were54:20secondary. They were on the back burner.54:23This job brought them back up front.54:26>> Well, hang on. What was your belief54:27system when you were an executive?54:29[snorts]54:30>> Was it just54:30>> Well, most of my career was eventually54:33spent in spiritual publishing. So, my54:34outlook was a lot like what you're54:37hearing now. But before that,54:38>> before that,54:39>> oh, I was just interested in politics54:41and social trends and things of that54:43nature. I might go on a yoga retreat now54:46and then or do something like that, but54:48it was it was secondary. It was54:50secondary. Just just New York hustle is54:52really what it was.54:53>> New York hustle. Got it. And New York54:54City, you don't talk about spirituality54:56too much or people start to think you're54:58a nut. You know, you can you can invoke55:00your version of psychologized NPR55:02Buddhism, but you you know, you go55:04beyond that and your tote bag gets55:06revoked.55:06>> No, the moon the mooneyies were55:08mooneyies were still on the west side at55:09that time.55:10>> Oh, that's right. That's right. No, you55:12can't do any of that stuff. Um, and so55:16it wasn't too frequently talked about55:18and people had your fairly conventional55:20attitudes. It's a bunch of junk, a bunch55:22of nonsense. Don't tell me about your55:23Star Scroll, you know, leave that back55:25at the Silver Moon Diner.55:27>> And so that stuff was back burned in my55:29life. I began reading into the backlist55:32of of this imprint and it changed55:34everything for me. It reignited all my55:36childhood interests. So I read about the55:39different mystical positive mind55:40philosophies. I read about the55:42philosophy of GI Gerjief. I read all55:44kinds of of occult and esoteric and55:48alternative spiritual texts that just55:51awakened a fire in me that had gone way55:54down to a little pilot light. And then55:56eventually eventually having thought I55:59left writing behind which was a real56:02suffering for me I rediscovered myself56:04as a writer because to write well you56:07need that perfect marriage to topic and56:10I didn't have it I didn't want to write56:12book reviews for the village voice or56:14something like that. I didn't want to56:16write about politics. There are enough56:17guys boopping around town doing that. I56:19didn't want any part of it. But suddenly56:22suddenly I began to realize that the56:25metaphysical topics and their purveyors56:28figures like Manley P. Hall, Edar Casey,56:31Madame HP Bllovadsky, these figures were56:34not receiving fair treatment within56:37mainstream letters.56:38>> Well, people don't realize how56:39influential you are with the culture. I56:42mean, if if anyone who think watched or56:44read The Secret or thinks about56:46manifestation, half the kids on TikTok,56:48it goes back to Manley P. Paul, doesn't56:50it?56:51>> Yeah, it's remarkable. And and the under56:54these figures are almost like an56:55underground river that feeds so much of56:58our above ground culture, but they get57:00forgotten. They get disparaged.57:03They are when they're acknowledged,57:05they're all within mainstream letters.57:07Their reputations and their lives are57:09butchered. But these are people who57:11really lived for something.57:12>> Well, how did you know Neville was57:13important?57:14>> Oh, man. I knew Neville was important57:17when I first came into contact with his57:19work. I had not heard of him. It was57:21summer of 2003 and this is what57:23reignited my writing career. Uh there57:26was a positive thinking magazine called57:28Science of Mind and they landed an57:30interview with a major league pitcher57:32named Barry Zitto and Barry became the57:35hero of the 2012 World Series pitching57:38for the San Francisco Giants.57:40Barry57:42uses or used a lot of these positive57:46mind methods in his training came from57:48his parents57:50and so they wanted to find somebody they57:53could trust to interview Barry. There57:56was no room to mess this up. This was a57:58very important58:01catch and article and figure and they58:04asked me to do it and I hadn't written58:06for years and I was so thrilled and I58:09thought this is another open door. This58:12is another yes. Take this. And so I58:15interviewed Barry in the summer of 2003.58:18>> No anxiety. Don't this up.58:20>> Oh, I had huge anxiety.58:22>> Good. And I read into his background58:24very deeply and I discovered something58:27which is that a good article of any kind58:31is an article in which the writer58:33follows his or her own proclivities and58:35finds the connective tissue. Finds the58:37connective tissue. You create your own58:39beginning, middle, and end. And I wanted58:41to do that with Barry because I was so58:43fascinated with him as a man of mystical58:48beliefs who really took the rubber to58:51the road because you have nowhere to58:53hide in athleticism whether you're a58:56martial artist, basketball player, you58:58have nowhere to hide. You're out there59:00naked.59:00>> You can or you can't.59:01>> You can or you can't. And your your59:03performance is your only proving ground.59:05And Barry's performance was stellar. And59:07he was so frank and so upfront about the59:11mystical ideas that fed his training59:13which he got from his parents Joe and59:16Roberta. And as we were talking, Barry59:19said to me, "You must really be into59:21Neville or Neville Goddard." I had never59:23heard the name. And he said something to59:26me about Neville Goddard, this great59:29British Barbadian mystic.59:30>> A ball player turned you on to Neville.59:32>> Ball player. Okay. Barry Zitto. Yeah.59:35And I got Neville's book Resurrection59:38which was published in 1966 his last59:41fulllength book. And Neville's59:45contention which he repeated elegantly59:47across his career is that your59:49imagination is what is symbolically59:52called God in scripture. And that59:56everything that you experience consists59:59of your own emotionalized thoughts1:00:02pushed out into the world. including my1:00:05voice right now, including your presence1:00:07right now. So Neville would say to your1:00:10audience, um, there's no Mitch here,1:00:13there's no AJ here. These are figments1:00:15of your own imagination. You're just1:00:17ready to receive whatever this message1:00:18is through that form right now. It's all1:00:21rooted in you as you are rooted in the1:00:24ultimate. And I fell into Neville's1:00:26message because he enunciated it so1:00:29beautifully. And every time I read it or1:00:32heard it, it was as though I were1:00:34encountering it for the first time. And1:00:37Neville became one of the chief1:00:38influences on my life. So I write the1:00:41article about Barry. About two weeks1:00:44later, somebody tells me, "Mitch, Joe1:00:46Zto is on the phone, Barry's father. He1:00:49wants to talk to you." And I'm thinking,1:00:50"Oh god." Because Joe had a really tough1:00:52reputation. So now I'm nervous. And I1:00:55pick up the phone. He goes, "Mitch, this1:00:56is Joe Zto." And he, "That article was1:00:58terrific. Now you listen to me. You1:01:01stick with this thing. By which he meant1:01:03writing. By which he meant writing. And1:01:06it was just what I needed to hear at1:01:07that juncture of life. Had I not gone to1:01:10that backwater new age publisher, had I1:01:12not read into its backlist, had I not1:01:15interviewed Barry, encountered Neville,1:01:17encountered Joe, I wouldn't be seated1:01:19here right now. I wouldn't be married to1:01:21my my wife Jacqueline Castell right now,1:01:24who we met through our shared adjacency1:01:26to these topics.1:01:29What I experienced when I was fired from1:01:31the free press was a failure and it was1:01:34emotionally very difficult. I suffered.1:01:37I suffered. It's not something I want to1:01:39go through again or wish somebody else1:01:41would go through. But without that1:01:43suffering would not have come the1:01:45deliverance and the refinement that I1:01:47saw. It's just the bargain that life1:01:49strikes with us.1:01:50>> Well, I mean, um, Jack Valet, Manley1:01:54Hall, Neville,1:01:56who was in the slush pile? What kind of1:01:58work were you getting that you said no?1:02:01[snorts]1:02:01>> The only things for me that wound up in1:02:04the slush pile, and there are a few1:02:05things I wish wound up in the slush pile1:02:07that [laughter] I published, uh, were1:02:09works that were just lazy where people1:02:11weren't really putting themselves1:02:14through paces to ask, "How do I know1:02:17this? Have I struggled to verify this?1:02:20Have I really tried to make this1:02:21happen?" And it's tough in publishing1:02:24because even when you decide I'm not1:02:28going to acquire a project unless I get1:02:30sample chapters and I know those sample1:02:32chapters are just cracker jack and1:02:34great. People choke under pressure all1:02:36the time. That was the most stressful1:02:38thing for me in publishing. People used1:02:40to ask me, "Do you miss publishing?" Not1:02:42for an instant. It did many good things1:02:44for me. But1:02:47being a writer and being answerable to1:02:49myself is infinitely more fulfilling1:02:53than being on pins and needles as to1:02:55whether somebody is going to meet his or1:02:56her deadline. I would pay people good1:02:59money to write on topics that were near1:03:02and dear to their heart and they would1:03:04choke and it was always my fault, you1:03:08know, never their fault. And there was1:03:11an exception to that who I write about1:03:12in the book [laughter]1:03:14and a lot of people don't hearing don't1:03:16like hearing the name of this exception.1:03:18>> Go ahead.1:03:18>> But that was Tucker Carlson.1:03:21>> I knew Tucker when we were relative kids1:03:24and I signed up Tucker to write a book.1:03:26His career was just taking off. Didn't1:03:28work out. One day at my desk, I got a1:03:32handwritten note and a check for $10,0001:03:34from Tucker. And he said, "Look, I'm1:03:36very sorry. I just I can't do it." and1:03:39uh one and only time in 27 years1:03:42anyone's ever done that, taken the1:03:44responsibility on himself, returned the1:03:46dough, and you part with a handshake. Uh1:03:49but the toughest part of publishing, and1:03:51I suppose this goes on everywhere, this1:03:52goes on in hospitals, this goes on in1:03:54every workplace, is that people just1:03:57will not say, uh, I had an accident or I1:04:00couldn't do it or I made a mistake, I1:04:03failed, whatever. And um that was a1:04:06tough part of publishing for me. I don't1:04:09want to depend upon somebody else to row1:04:11the boat. I want to row it myself.1:04:13>> I think it your publishing career shows1:04:16up almost as rule number one is do the1:04:17work and do it on time. I mean1:04:20>> Amen.1:04:20>> It's right there. Number one.1:04:21>> Amen. And if you can't,1:04:24>> then be open about it. Go to the person1:04:26to whom you owe it and you'll fix it1:04:28together. Just don't run away. [sighs]1:04:31>> Um can we connect Manley P. called a1:04:34Ronald Reagan.1:04:35>> Yes,1:04:36>> let's do that.1:04:36>> They knew each other.1:04:37>> They did?1:04:38>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I wrote about this of1:04:41all places in that journal of occult1:04:43Passions, the Washington Post in 2010.1:04:47And I I don't write very much for1:04:49mainstream sources anymore because I1:04:51find that my topics are treated with1:04:53cynicism and I don't like pushing back1:04:56all the time against cynicism. But it's1:04:59also a good exercise because you're1:05:01writing for a place that has no1:05:02sympathies to occult subject matter. I1:05:06did a text analysis of Reagan's speeches1:05:09and I found Dead to Rights and anybody1:05:13wants to can read about it in the1:05:14Washington Post. Uh it's called Reagan1:05:17and the Occult is the article came out1:05:19in April of 2010 with my by line. I did1:05:23a textual analysis of Reagan's speeches1:05:26and I found that from the earliest1:05:29stages of his political career in the1:05:301950s when he was a spokesman for uh GE1:05:35up through the second term of his1:05:37presidency. He was adopting not only1:05:41ideas but specific phrasiology1:05:44from the work of Manly P. hall,1:05:46particularly from a book called The1:05:48Secret Destiny of America, which is kind1:05:51of a mythical retelling of American1:05:53history. And Reagan would talk about1:05:55this. He spoke about this at the1:05:57centenery of the Statue of Liberty. He1:06:00spoke about this in front of CPAC. He1:06:02spoke about this in front of college1:06:04audiences at commencement addresses. And1:06:07everybody just thought, "Ah, you know,1:06:09there goes old Ron again. You know, he1:06:10gets a little barmy." Well, he was1:06:13quoting directly from Manley P. Hall.1:06:16Furthermore, uh there's an Gnostic1:06:19scholar who died recently, Stefan Heler.1:06:22And Heler, who I think was a very sober1:06:25man and a very good witness overall, uh1:06:28told me uh that he was on campus once at1:06:30the philosophical research society in1:06:32Los Angeles and that there was this1:06:34beautiful limousine parked outside of1:06:36Manley Hall's office and Heler went up1:06:40to the driver who was a right proper1:06:42chauffeur with the cap and everything1:06:44and he said to the chauffeur, uh1:06:47Stefan used to have a particular way of1:06:49talking to who belongs this beautiful1:06:51are and he said, "Well, you know, I'm1:06:52not supposed to talk about it, but1:06:54Governor Reagan, you know, he's there in1:06:55the office with with with Manley Hall."1:06:58And uh then when Reagan was running for1:07:00president, he would come on the tube and1:07:02Manley would sort of laugh a little and1:07:03say, "Ah, yes, we know him." And uh a1:07:06woman named Pearl Thomas, who was the1:07:08librarian, confirmed this, but but it1:07:10wasn't something they like to talk about1:07:12because Manley Hall was not a1:07:13starchaser. He didn't like to try to1:07:15associate himself with political figures1:07:17or bold-faced names. There's something I1:07:20really admired about the man. He lived1:07:21in Hollywood most of his adult life, but1:07:23he never kind of chased after celebrity1:07:26status. He lived a very quiet life.1:07:28Anyway, uh best of my knowledge, he and1:07:32Reagan had had friendly meetings and1:07:35dead to rights certain as dead to rights1:07:37certainty uh based on direct quotes, uh1:07:41Reagan was was drawing upon the work of1:07:43Manley Hall in his own speeches. So1:07:45people say, "Oh, the Reagans, you know,1:07:48into astrology, numerology." Yeah,1:07:50that's true. And it went deeper than1:07:51that. Went deeper than that.1:07:52>> And do you remember any specific1:07:54examples from Reagan?1:07:55>> Oh, well, very specifically Reagan1:07:57across the arc of his political career1:07:59told a story about this mysterious1:08:03unknown speaker at the signing of the1:08:05Declaration of Independence uh in1:08:08Philadelphia in on July 4th, 1776. And1:08:12no one knew how this mysterious man1:08:14entered and exited the locked doors of1:08:16the hall. But when the delegates were1:08:19wavering and were afraid to put their1:08:20signatures to paper, he gave this1:08:23rousing address. And he uh uh urged all1:08:27the delegates to rush forward and sign1:08:28the paper. And so Manley wondered1:08:30whether this was a secret agent of1:08:33destiny, a hidden adept whose job it was1:08:36to nudge the New Republic along on its1:08:39path to experiments in self-governance.1:08:42And I remember I first got onto the1:08:44scent trail of this because a talk show1:08:46host in New Orleans said to me, "Did you1:08:50know that Ronald Reagan believed in1:08:53secret spiritual masters?" And I said,1:08:56"No, I didn't know that." Somewhat1:08:57skeptical. and uh he sent me a1:09:00newsletter from some congressman who had1:09:03written something about it. And the1:09:06newsletter from the congressman1:09:08identified an article that Reagan wrote1:09:11for Parade magazine in 1980 on the topic1:09:15of what the Fourth of July means to him.1:09:18And he wrote the article on a legal pad1:09:20in longhand. And I got hold of the1:09:22article and my blood ran cold because I1:09:26realized, oh my god, this is telltale1:09:28phrasiology from Manley P Hall. And I1:09:30began to track it. And I tracked the1:09:32story that Manley told, which is a story1:09:34of questionable vintage, but he1:09:37certainly thought he was repeating1:09:39something that that that had historical1:09:42verity. And1:09:44>> did he ever name that guy? Because he1:09:46shows up in the account of St. Germaine,1:09:48right?1:09:48>> Which connects to theosophy and all of1:09:50that. Exactly. He called him the unknown1:09:52speaker. Okay, that was the term,1:09:54unknown speaker. Um, I tracked down the1:09:58etmology of the story and I'm I'm fairly1:10:00sure that it comes from a a mid 19th1:10:03century work and it was it was told in a1:10:06way that was intended to be fanciful. It1:10:08was written by a guy named George1:10:09Liippard who was a friend of Edgar Ellen1:10:11Poe and he was trying to capture1:10:13something of the fiery eloquence at the1:10:16time of the revolution and he1:10:18acknowledged that the story was invented1:10:20but he felt it was parabolically true,1:10:22mythically true. Manley felt that the1:10:25story had historical verity. He repeated1:10:27it. Reagan repeated it. Reagan even says1:10:29in front of CPAC, uh, I have to admit1:10:33I've never gone through the trouble to1:10:34verify the story, but I I believe that1:10:36it's true. I've spoken to the man who1:10:38who told it to me. I think he's1:10:40referencing Manly Phal. And um and there1:10:43it is. There is deep-seated esoteric1:10:46history. You got to remember during1:10:48Reagan's lifetime, Manley Pal was an1:10:51unknown. He's known today. He's known1:10:53throughout the internet today, but back1:10:55then this was a real figure from1:10:58underground culture. And there's Ronald1:11:00Reagan quoting from him.1:11:02>> How does Manley uh Hall connect to1:11:05Napoleon Hill?1:11:07Well, I don't know that Manley Hall1:11:09would have liked the work of Napoleon1:11:10Hill because Manley was discouraging of1:11:13an acquisitional approach to1:11:16spirituality or to self-development. I1:11:18don't share that critique of Manley's. I1:11:21think Napoleon Hill, despite his own1:11:23checkered biography, which I've written1:11:25about,1:11:26>> was a tremendously shrewd observer of1:11:29human nature. And I reckon that Napoleon1:11:33Hill and his book Think and Grow Rich,1:11:35which I recommend, saved my own life1:11:36because I was fired twice in publishing.1:11:39The second and last time was in 2017.1:11:43Now, my company was bought out by Random1:11:45House. This was in 2013. And I thought,1:11:48"Oh man, they are going to come for me.1:11:51>> Here we go again.1:11:52>> Here we go again." And so I did1:11:55something that I recommend to people. I1:11:58had known Napoleon Hill's work for1:12:00years. I had published an addition of1:12:03Think and Grow Rich since 2004,1:12:06but I like many people thought, "Ah, you1:12:09know, I don't need that self-help stuff.1:12:11I know all these exercises. I'm an1:12:13expert when it comes to this stuff. Come1:12:15on, bring on the big boys." I was wrong.1:12:17I was wrong. I decided, feeling that my1:12:20job might be in danger. And I lasted1:12:21another four years. just took them a1:12:23while to find me. But I decided in 2013,1:12:26you know,1:12:26>> was that when you were the best kept1:12:27secret in the company?1:12:28>> That's when I was the best kept secret1:12:30in the company. Had I remained so. Um I1:12:34I thought to myself, um there's no such1:12:37thing as a merger. There's a buyout,1:12:40right?1:12:40>> And buyouts result in layoffs. And those1:12:43are the hard truths. And so I started to1:12:46think, I'm going to need to contemplate1:12:49a career post-publishing because I ain't1:12:50going through this again.1:12:52And I recommend this to everybody who1:12:54feels they are at a crisis in life. I1:12:58got a copy of Think and Grow Rich, a1:13:00book that I was on very familiar terms1:13:02with, but I did something different. I1:13:04did every exercise in that book as1:13:06though my life depended on it. And when1:13:09they came for me in fall of 2017, I was1:13:13ready. I was ready to embark on my own1:13:15independent career as a a writer,1:13:18speaker, television host. I was ready.1:13:21And I attribute a lot of that to1:13:23Napoleon Hill's work. People don't know1:13:27Think and Grow Rich. They only believe1:13:28that they know Think and Grow Rich1:13:30because of our I heard it somewhere1:13:32culture. The book has an element of mind1:13:34metaphysics in it. It has an element of1:13:36mental causation in it, but it's a very1:13:39actionoriented book and it is a book1:13:42filled with shrewd observations about1:13:45human nature and I cannot recommend it1:13:48highly enough.1:13:48>> What do you think we're getting wrong1:13:50about it?1:13:51We [snorts] get things wrong because we1:13:53think we're too sophisticated for books1:13:56like Think and Grow Rich.1:13:57>> I'm supposed to be embarrassed sitting1:13:59on the New York City subway carrying my1:14:01copy of Think and Grow Rich. How go.1:14:03What are you going to read next? Dale1:14:05Carnegie's How to Win Friends and1:14:06Influence People.1:14:07>> That's next on my list.1:14:08>> You know, I give that book as a gift to1:14:11my kids and to other young people. We1:14:14I'd like to say we've forgotten the1:14:16lessons of these books, but we've never1:14:17even learned them. We as a culture think1:14:20we're too sophisticated for books like1:14:22that. And I think that's a a huge and1:14:25tragic mistake. And I will read Think1:14:28and Grow Rich cover out with my white1:14:31packing tape on it to my clear packing1:14:34tape to keep it from falling apart. And1:14:37I go back to that book just about every1:14:40year. And I encourage people, I don't1:14:43care how often you feel you've been1:14:44around the block with self-help or1:14:47motivational literature or whatever it1:14:49may be, do the exercises as though your1:14:52life depends on it and things will1:14:54happen. I state that from experience.1:14:56>> I agree. My copies are probably 30 years1:14:58old. I still have it.1:15:00>> Did you connect Napoleon Hill to Marxism1:15:03at some point? [laughter]1:15:06>> That's very funny that you say that. Uh1:15:08there was a lawyer from the Napoleon1:15:09Hill Foundation. Best editorial note1:15:12I've ever gotten. He he wrote in the1:15:15margin of one of my manuscripts because1:15:17I was doing a book in conjunction with1:15:19their foundation. Napoleon Hill was not1:15:21a socialist. It was very dry comment. I1:15:24think what I was doing was I was1:15:26comparing Napoleon Hill to the work of1:15:28someone who was a socialist and that's1:15:29Wallace D. Wattles who wrote The Science1:15:31of Getting Rich, which was a primary1:15:33source behind the book and movie The1:15:35Secret. What people don't understand1:15:37about Wallace Dy Wattles and what I've1:15:39what I've written about in connection1:15:40with his life, he's a beautiful man. He1:15:43was a democratic socialist and he1:15:45believed that each individual could1:15:48liberate him or herself from the machine1:15:51by using these mental paths to wealth1:15:54and could create kind of a society of1:15:57benevolent anarchy. I guess today we1:15:59might call him an anarchist or a1:16:01libertarian, but he saw himself as a1:16:04socialist and he saw himself in the1:16:06March of Progress and he saw his methods1:16:09as methods that would liberate working1:16:11men and women from the machine.1:16:14>> He's a beautiful man. Ran for office1:16:16three times on the ticket of the1:16:18Socialist Party USA. Yeah. and uh and1:16:21was going to run for office a fourth1:16:22time, but unfortunately he died of1:16:24tuberculosis about a year after uh1:16:27science of getting rich came out.1:16:29Beautiful man and he was the real thing.1:16:32Wallace Dy Waddles, he was a real1:16:34idealist and I think his methods are1:16:36among the most wonderful that you'll1:16:38find in the whole mind metaphysics1:16:40genre. He was and I've written1:16:43extensively about this and let me tell1:16:45you this is a hard one argument. Uh I1:16:48wrote an article recently on the German1:16:50idealist uh FWH Hegel called Hegel and1:16:54the validity of pop metaphysics. Wallace1:16:57D. Wattles was a legitimate interpreter1:17:00of the metaphysical ideals of Hegel as a1:17:04philosopher. Ideals that got flipped by1:17:06Markx into materialism. We sometimes use1:17:09the term dialectical materialism. Hegel1:17:12had nothing material about him. He1:17:14believed that the driving engine of life1:17:16was the metaphysical. Wallace D. Wattles1:17:19took this argument along with the1:17:21notions, concepts, theories of other1:17:24idealist philosophers, and he rendered1:17:26it into a slender program in his book,1:17:29The Science of Getting Rich. Again, kind1:17:32of a ghost title that lettered people1:17:34don't want to be associated with, but a1:17:36memorable title. I always tell people1:17:39when you're titles are very important.1:17:41They're critical. When you're looking1:17:42for a title, the early pioneers of1:17:45self-help were masters. Think and Grow1:17:48Rich, Science of Getting Rich, The Game1:17:50of Life, How to Win Friends and1:17:52Influence People. You cannot forget1:17:54these once you've heard them. They're1:17:56outrageous.1:17:57>> We spend more time on our titles than we1:17:59do on our episodes sometimes.1:18:00>> And well, you should. Well, you should.1:18:02Books are made or broken by titles. And1:18:04I always tell people,1:18:06>> be audacious, but live up to it. Live up1:18:08to it. Make a bold promise and then1:18:11deliver on the bold promise. Or use1:18:13something really basic. If you want to1:18:14call a book the tarot, okay, that's1:18:17sufficient. If you want to call a book1:18:19Lincoln, that's sufficient. But if you1:18:22don't have something that's instantly1:18:23recognizable, you're going to have to1:18:25make a bold promise, especially to1:18:27readers who are just being pulled in all1:18:29different directions at once. So Waddles1:18:32writes this book, The Science of Getting1:18:34Witch Rich, which seems very1:18:36unsocialistic in its framing, but he had1:18:39a point of view that was totally1:18:41original and and and valid and I think1:18:46really sincere in its Hegel's1:18:50metaphysics. My article Hegel and the1:18:53validity of pop metaphysics very hard1:18:56one piece came through very deep reading1:18:58of Hegel. It's available for free on1:19:00Substack. I'm proud of it and I'm proud1:19:02of Wallace D. Waddles. I was probably1:19:04comparing Hill to Waddles and that's1:19:06what engendered that remark.1:19:08>> Do would would Waddles work now? Would1:19:11his philosophy work now? And like in our1:19:14society1:19:14>> of consciousness, awareness, judgment1:19:18and I would say it was one of the1:19:21happiest weeks of my life. It was1:19:23extraordinary. I recommend it to1:19:24anybody. Well, your your motto for a1:19:28while was try and then changed it a1:19:32little, didn't it?1:19:32>> Did I?1:19:33>> Well, didn't something tell you to1:19:35>> Oh, do less.1:19:36>> Yes, you're very right. You're very1:19:38right. My motto is try and it'll always1:19:40be in my bones. But we were, as you1:19:43rightly hit on, at the Monroe Institute1:19:46as the ultimate exercise,1:19:49we were invited using this sound1:19:51technology to go into what might be1:19:54called a transpersonal state and ask1:19:57five questions in order of descending1:19:59importance. And1:20:03I asked for direction about what to do1:20:06with my life, my work, my career. And1:20:09the number one response I got back was,1:20:12"Do less."1:20:14>> Amazing.1:20:15>> Do less. And it was jarring for me1:20:19because1:20:22my motus operandi is activity. Activity.1:20:25>> Book a year.1:20:26>> Yeah. Yeah. podcast, TV, you're always1:20:30going, man.1:20:31>> I'm always going. I'm always going,1:20:33>> which is not not ideal.1:20:35>> Yeah. I had a health episode uh earlier1:20:37this year where I was hospitalized1:20:39because my hemoglobin tanked and we're1:20:41still trying to figure out what happened1:20:43and why, but it was scary as hell. And1:20:46uh when you get a message of wisdom and1:20:49you don't listen, you can do whatever1:20:52you want, but that message will take it1:20:54out of your skin. and it got taken out1:20:56of my skin and I'm fine now and I'm1:20:58doing much much better. But do less was1:21:02a dictim that I really had to abide and1:21:05I was listening intellectually and I1:21:07wasn't listening emotionally.1:21:10This is again why I believe in very1:21:12simple ideas because profoundity only1:21:14appears in application. Now am I doing1:21:17less? I think I am trying to1:21:22dedicate myself to things that will make1:21:25a great deal of difference if they1:21:27succeed. I'm not running around as1:21:30harried as I was. This is probably the1:21:33longest stretch of time I've gone1:21:35without fully throwing myself into a new1:21:38book, although I've got one coming. And1:21:40um traveling1:21:42>> yoga of1:21:43>> the yoga of money.1:21:44>> Yoga of money. That's right.1:21:45>> Yeah. I have to get back to that. And um1:21:49[laughter and gasps]1:21:50uh but I I the travel and you know1:21:53engaging in exchanges like this, these1:21:56things are renewing for me. I'm not1:21:58sitting down pounding away at the1:22:00keyboard or prepping for a shoot.1:22:02They're more natural for me. And so I've1:22:05started to abide do less. Although I'll1:22:07always hang on to try as my as my motto1:22:11because it it it not only pertains to1:22:12work, but it it pertains to spiritual1:22:15experiment. I think those can live1:22:17together.1:22:18>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure.1:22:19>> Is that what made you promise to talk1:22:2110% less?1:22:23>> Uh well, talking 10% less is something1:22:25that will benefit everybody's life1:22:27[laughter]1:22:28because most of the time, most of what1:22:31we say is just the chirping of cicas.1:22:33It's so unnecessary.1:22:35I think that if people want an immediate1:22:39technique for improving self-image,1:22:43silence. Just say less. Don't1:22:46overcompensate.1:22:47Don't walk into a room and immediately1:22:49start trying to influence things. Listen1:22:53more carefully to what's going on. Don't1:22:54throw yourself into relationships too1:22:57quickly or invite someone or something1:22:59in too quickly. There is almost nothing1:23:02in a person's life that won't be1:23:04improved1:23:05by talking at least 10% less.1:23:13When you came back from Monroe, I think1:23:14you went on Duncan's show and1:23:18there were things that you didn't that1:23:19were so intimate that you would didn't1:23:21want to talk about them. Have you ever1:23:22shared those?1:23:23>> Well, do less was one of the things I1:23:25want to talk about. Yeah.1:23:26>> You didn't tell Duncan.1:23:27>> No, I I didn't want to go into the1:23:30specific messages that I had gotten1:23:32because they felt too raw, too fresh1:23:35>> and um I needed to sit with it for a1:23:38while. I do disclose things. I encourage1:23:40people, it's ironic because I encourage1:23:42people not to disclose things. If you1:23:45put something out there, if you put a1:23:46wish out there, someone will destroy it.1:23:49Someone will take it from you. I with1:23:52certain boundaries tend to be very1:23:55disclosing because1:23:58I want to be transparent. We have a1:24:01crisis of transparency among spiritual1:24:03communicators. spiritual communicators,1:24:06and I know this from 27 years in1:24:08publishing, having worked with a lot of1:24:10the household names,1:24:12they're as weak as I am, and they're not1:24:14the same people who appear when the1:24:17camera's on or when the microphone's on1:24:19or when the audience is assembled. And1:24:21they ought to be because1:24:24to hide for the sake of theater is to1:24:28misinform people that someone lives on a1:24:31higher level or a higher echelon. And1:24:35that's not true. And1:24:38and it's more than just a problem of1:24:40misleading the audience member. That's1:24:43problematic by itself. But there's a1:24:45greater problem. And the greater problem1:24:47is it conceals the1:24:52severity of the odds that face all of us1:24:55in matters of self-development. I am not1:24:58hopeful about humanity. I am not a lover1:25:01of humanity. I am a lover of individual1:25:04people very few in number.1:25:06[clears throat]1:25:07>> Because I think humanity is in1:25:08horrendous condition. And when I say1:25:12prepare for the day when your best1:25:14friend betrays you, I mean that. And1:25:16that's painful. And I don't like stating1:25:19such a thing to people.1:25:20>> If you live long enough, these rules1:25:22come true.1:25:22>> They come true.1:25:24>> And my wish, my deepest wish is for the1:25:28happiness of the reader. But you can't1:25:30have happiness. You can't have ideals1:25:33without being very direct with people.1:25:35and spiritual communicators1:25:38must be if they're really going to be1:25:40serving the human exchange more direct1:25:43about their own frailties. So I try to1:25:47be transparent1:25:49in your book and and in a lot of your1:25:51work I see a fascination with with1:25:53people who have these manufactured1:25:55personas whether it's FDR uh Teddy1:25:59Roosevelt.1:25:59>> Yeah.1:26:00>> You're the leather jacket tattooed1:26:03self-help guy. Mhm.1:26:04>> Is this a persona? Is how much of Mitch1:26:07Horowitz is the leather jacket guy?1:26:10>> Are you exempt from it?1:26:12>> I'm not exempt from anything. I tell1:26:14people that if you decide how you want1:26:17to be in the world and you pursue that1:26:20in terms of environment, selfhood,1:26:23that's not wearing a mask. That's1:26:26dropping a mask. The mask is conformity.1:26:29I realized at a certain point I had left1:26:32a part of my existence behind. And I had1:26:34left behind seeing Black Flag when I was1:26:3717 years old. I had left behind1:26:40what thrilled me when I was a kid. I1:26:42left behind hearing the dead Kennedy1:26:45sing Holiday in Cambodia at age 15 and1:26:48knowing what truth was. And so I began1:26:51to reclaim that. And if that chafed with1:26:55new age culture, I don't really care.1:26:57And if I'm invited to a new age center1:26:59where everybody wears white and I'm1:27:01walking around like this, which is just1:27:03Monday for me, I don't really care. It's1:27:07it's who I am. Um, I got a letter once.1:27:10[laughter]1:27:11I still like get goosebumps thinking1:27:13about it from Peter Chris, the first1:27:14drummer in Kiss.1:27:15>> Sure.1:27:16>> Because I had written about something1:27:17Peter said in one of my books.1:27:19>> He made a fascinating observation. Peter1:27:22said that the bandmates were, you know,1:27:24they were looking around for a sense of1:27:26identity when they were young in the1:27:28early 70s. And when they when they came1:27:31up with the makeup,1:27:33he said it was the most incredible thing1:27:35because it wasn't like we were hiding.1:27:37It was like we were revealing ourselves.1:27:40And he said that Jean Simmons had1:27:42confided to him one day that putting on1:27:45that demon makeup was for him so1:27:47self-revealing that if he could, he1:27:50would never take it off. And he said1:27:52that he noticed that when Gene put on1:27:54his makeup, the roadies and even1:27:57audience members and everybody would1:27:58sort of step around him a little bit.1:28:00And he said, you know, we became1:28:02ourselves. We became comfortable. We1:28:04became relaxed. We became familiar with1:28:07ourselves for the first time. We weren't1:28:09hiding. We were revealing ourselves. And1:28:12so I wrote about this in a book and then1:28:14I heard from Peter and you I got1:28:15hysterical with joy. And I take that as1:28:18truth. And I want to suggest to people I1:28:22want to suggest to people whatever walk1:28:25of life you're in, are you really1:28:28dressing, acting, comporting yourself1:28:30the way you want? And I'm not saying you1:28:34should act on it immediately, but know1:28:38your preferences. Know your preferences.1:28:40Get up in the goddamn morning and ask1:28:42yourself, is this what I want to wear?1:28:44Is this who I want to be? Is this how I1:28:46want to sound? Is this how I want my1:28:47hair to look? Or whatever it is. Just1:28:50know, you know, we never even ask1:28:52ourselves. We're so sused with with peer1:28:55pressure and with cultural conformity1:28:57and it gets its claws inside of us to1:28:59the point where we can't even talk to1:29:02ourselves using authentic phrasing that1:29:05belongs to us the individual. So know1:29:08your preferences start there. It's not1:29:10hiding. It's it's revealing.1:29:14>> That's perfect.1:29:16Uh I got to spend two days with Jean on1:29:18a job and boy I just ate it up. I just1:29:21picked his brain every minute of of1:29:24those days. He was amazing. He was He1:29:26was great to me.1:29:27>> I love Kiss and I am forever a1:29:2915year-old boy and proudly so.1:29:31>> Of course,1:29:32>> we saw Kiss at Barkley Center in1:29:33Brooklyn and oh my god,1:29:36>> I think doesn't Ace show up in your work1:29:38here and there as well?1:29:39>> I love Ace. I [laughter] love every one1:29:43of them.1:29:44>> Just when they took off the makeup, it1:29:45was it was jarring to remember that1:29:47first album.1:29:48>> It was a traumatic experience.1:29:49>> It was. It was. I'm still not used to1:29:51it. [laughter]1:29:53Um, so the book is aimed at the false1:29:55self and we've kind of we talked around1:29:58it a little bit today. When was the last1:30:00time you caught your false self kind of1:30:04running your personality? when I talk1:30:06about things like service or when I1:30:08start finding myself using language1:30:11internally that belongs to the external1:30:13spiritual culture. That's why I'm very1:30:15careful with words like love or peace or1:30:19service. I don't want to see anybody1:30:24using1:30:25terms that come out of the Bartlett's1:30:28book of divine quotations or that sound1:30:31like they belong to a a business plan1:30:33from Silicon Valley 25 years ago. I want1:30:36to know what I and what the individual1:30:41wants.1:30:43Let's start there. Let's start there.1:30:45doesn't mean you can act on it1:30:46immediately, but I write a lot in the1:30:49book about knowing your wish. And it1:30:52sounds so self-evident, and that's1:30:54exactly where to start digging when1:30:55something sounds self-evident because I1:30:58challenge the reader that he or she1:31:00doesn't know their wishes because we1:31:04internalize peer pressure, including1:31:06that of our subcultures, and we start to1:31:08talk about service, make the world a1:31:11better place, love humanity, and so on1:31:13and so forth. I'm interested in conduct.1:31:16I'm not interested in pretty1:31:17praiseiology. And I've had1:31:19>> I want to be rich so I can start a1:31:21charity. I want to be famous so I can1:31:24influence. That's dishonest,1:31:26>> right? It's dishonest unless one really1:31:29means it. And if you really mean it,1:31:30well then bravo. Be my guest. But1:31:32>> so if you want to be rich, just say it.1:31:34>> Know that you do. Say it. And for God's1:31:36sake, money does a lot of good things.1:31:38It educates children. It takes your1:31:40family members on trips. It replaces the1:31:42roof in a house. It's it's necessary.1:31:44So, let's start from stark honesty. A1:31:47wish, if it's authentic, should feel a1:31:50little embarrassing because we are so1:31:52induced by our subcultures to use a1:31:55language that is not our own. We were1:31:57talking about this earlier with the idea1:31:59of quoting from translations of1:32:02translations of translations of wisdom1:32:04literature that we can't even access in1:32:06the originals. The originals may not1:32:08exist. We call it tradition. It's1:32:11custom. It's not always custom. Often1:32:13it's habit. Let's give ourselves a1:32:16break. Give ourselves a break in1:32:18private. Dispense with habit. Dispense1:32:22with custom. And in an atmosphere of1:32:25exquisite privacy within your own1:32:26psyche, the only domain of privacy left1:32:29in our interconnected culture.1:32:33Speak to yourself for real about what1:32:36you want. I'm not saying you're going to1:32:38act on it immediately. I'm not saying1:32:40you're even going to like it, but at1:32:42least know. Don't be a stranger to1:32:44yourself. Because I think past a certain1:32:47age, maybe age nine, a kid is so1:32:51suffused with peer pressure that the1:32:54outer world and its subcultures just get1:32:57their claws in us and we can't even talk1:32:59to ourselves in a real way anymore1:33:01within. I also counsel deep privacy1:33:05because if you arrive at your wish and1:33:07it's something I hope a person does and1:33:09you share it with someone else, they1:33:11will destroy it.1:33:12>> Yes,1:33:13>> they will because it's not what's inside1:33:15them. And we as a human community just1:33:17love making rules and we love slamming1:33:20doors on one another's fingers. And I1:33:22can't tell you the number of times the1:33:24people who have spoken to me of service1:33:26and love and I'm your best friend, I've1:33:29still got the shivs in my back from1:33:32those times. So, let's let the pretty1:33:34language go for a minute. Let's let the1:33:37pretty quotations and the customary1:33:39ideas that divines all over the internet1:33:42can repeat. Let's let that go for a1:33:44minute. Forget the comments section.1:33:46This is about the individual. What does1:33:48the individual want within his or her1:33:50psyche? Well, can we just quickly go1:33:53through the the nine steps because1:33:55people need to know that your book is1:33:57it's a practical guide.1:33:59>> We've got the nine steps is the wish.1:34:02>> Ask what you truly want. Um ends not the1:34:05means.1:34:07>> Yeah,1:34:07>> that's interest. That's interesting to1:34:09me because you're not focusing on I1:34:13forget what you even used in the book,1:34:14but it was if you're picturing yourself1:34:16playing1:34:18in an arena.1:34:19>> Yeah. Yeah. You don't picture the guitar1:34:21lessons, you focus on the arena.1:34:24>> And and and in conjunction with that, I1:34:27would say that we can't choose the1:34:28conditions by which something reaches1:34:31us. And we have to be flexible about1:34:33those conditions. I did not plan on1:34:36getting fired and hired by a new age1:34:38publisher. That wasn't in the business1:34:40plan. But that's what allowed me to1:34:42rediscover myself as a writer. And that1:34:45feeds into what I was saying about1:34:48parables and myths. in which1:34:52God's spiritual messengers, genies come1:34:55to you as a disguised stranger, an1:34:58unbidden stranger. Let those strangers1:35:01in. We throw away incredible miracles,1:35:04incredible gifts because they don't fit1:35:06our mind's eye picture of what we think1:35:09we want. The philosopher Jacob Needleman1:35:12was a mentor to me and he once said to1:35:14me, "What do you do when someone offers1:35:16you a gift?" and brilliant student I1:35:19was. I stared at him blankly and he1:35:22said, "You accept it. You accept it."1:35:25And we throw away extraordinary gifts1:35:27all the time. Yeah.1:35:28>> Because they don't fit our mind's eye1:35:31image. So flexibility.1:35:34>> That was that was the one was very1:35:36striking to me. Um speak it, hold the1:35:38wish, say it out loud to yourself.1:35:40>> Absolutely.1:35:41>> Um the talisman.1:35:43>> Yeah.1:35:43>> So write it down, protect it.1:35:46>> Yep. and hide it.1:35:48>> Write the wish down. Write a1:35:50well-focused, passionately felt, and1:35:52exquisitely honest wish down on a little1:35:56card or something. Put it in the old1:35:59clear packing tape. I'm a big fan of1:36:01clear packing tape. Say that. Yeah.1:36:04>> Treat that wish. Carry that wish with1:36:06you like you were carrying a candle in a1:36:09rainstorm. Make it real. Make it real.1:36:12And dig this. It may seem like, oh, for1:36:14God's sake, Haro is with his1:36:16index cards. But trust me on this. Once1:36:20you've taken that step, you've created1:36:22something that wasn't there before in1:36:24nency, in particle form, but the honest1:36:28rendering of that wish privately on that1:36:31little card creates something in1:36:34particulate form that wasn't there1:36:36before. I value that. That's the whole1:36:38basis of chaos theory and chaos magic.1:36:41>> Yes. Yeah.1:36:44Step five is rehearse it. Run it through1:36:46your mind.1:36:47>> Petition. Live with it.1:36:49>> Yeah.1:36:49>> Pray for it. Petition whatever greater1:36:51force you seek. If none appeal to the1:36:53infinite matter of chaos.1:36:55>> Hypnogogia. Hypnogogic state. That's1:36:58interesting as well because once again1:37:00we're in practical application.1:37:01>> Yeah.1:37:02>> So for those who don't know what is the1:37:03hypnogogic state? Hypnogogia is a deeply1:37:07relaxed state that we all enter twice a1:37:09day just as we're falling to sleep at1:37:11night and just as we're coming to in the1:37:14morning. This is a state that was first1:37:17described although not in that term by a1:37:21French mind theorist Emil Kuay who was1:37:24very popular in the early 20th century.1:37:26He's a hero to me. Kuay is famous for1:37:29having prescribed a mantra day by day in1:37:33every way I am getting better and better1:37:35and critics would howl and make fun of1:37:37him and say how could anything so1:37:39childish make any difference in1:37:41anybody's life but what they missed was1:37:44how Kuay prescribed using it in this1:37:47state of hypnogogia a term that didn't1:37:49come into use until several generations1:37:52later in the 1980s Kuay died in 19261:37:57hyp Hypnogogia is this exquisitely1:38:00relaxed state that you enter again just1:38:02as falling to sleep, just as coming to.1:38:05It's a state of bodily heaviliness, he1:38:08heaviness, almost bodily paralysis.1:38:12You may experience waking dreams. You1:38:14may experience hallucinations.1:38:17Your rational defenses are lowered, but1:38:20you still have active cognition. Use1:38:24that time. Use that time to say a1:38:27prayer, make a visualization,1:38:30make an affirmation. Kuay called this1:38:32conscious auto suggestion. It's a kind1:38:34of self-hypnosis. Now, he was very1:38:37adamant about not being a spiritual1:38:39figure. He was trying to separate1:38:42hypnosis as a therapeutic art from1:38:44anything to do with the occult or1:38:46esoteric. So, so be it. So be it.1:38:49>> But1:38:50>> but in that state, you are very1:38:51suggestive. You are very suggestive and1:38:53it has proven in the 1970s and 80s in1:38:56experiments called the Gansfeld1:38:58experiments which are bulletproof to be1:39:01prime time for telepathy that if you1:39:04induce someone into this state of1:39:06relaxation this semi-sleep state uh1:39:10statistically incidences of telepathy1:39:13spike and this data has been published1:39:17pondered over metaanalyzed to the ends1:39:20of the earth it's unpolluted And it's1:39:22bulletproof.1:39:23>> Even even the best skeptics agreed and1:39:26we have precious few of them today and1:39:28you ain't going to find them on1:39:29Wikipedia.1:39:30>> No.1:39:30>> Um anyway, there is an extra physical1:39:35aspect to this state and it's so simple.1:39:37It's so simple because everybody answers1:39:39it twice a day. Use that time to run1:39:42your wish through your head. That's a1:39:44period of special suggestive power. I1:39:47believe a period of unique extra1:39:50physical possibility.1:39:53And a lot of people who suffer from1:39:55grief will describe the early morning1:39:57hours as the toughest time of day. And1:40:00that's because our rational defenses are1:40:01down. And things that we're afraid of or1:40:03we're grieving of.1:40:05>> They grip us when those rational1:40:08defenses are down. And then the workday1:40:09comes and we realize this wasn't so bad.1:40:12This1:40:13so hypnogogia can be a fearsome time.1:40:16But it's also a time of great potential1:40:18if we use it. So use it to repeat one's1:40:21wish. When those rational defenses are1:40:23down, there's the possibility of a real1:40:25penetration.1:40:26>> And step eight is silence.1:40:28>> Yes.1:40:29>> How does that work?1:40:30>> The first of all, we talk about things1:40:33in order to dilute them. We talk to our1:40:37shrinks. We talk to our friends. He1:40:39said, she said to dilute them. And1:40:41sometimes that's necessary. But you1:40:43don't want to bring that quality of1:40:44dilution to your wish. Keep your wish1:40:47silent. If there is one law that runs1:40:49through occultism, it is the power of1:40:52silence. There's great wisdom in that.1:40:54We talk to dissipate. We talk to1:40:57disperse. We're silent to concentrate,1:41:00to focus. You'll see that law repeated1:41:02in nature. We can wave air currents with1:41:05our hands, but a focused air current can1:41:08have the power of a bullet.1:41:09>> As above, so below. abide that in the1:41:12psyche.1:41:13>> Well, let's take a quick break and we'll1:41:15come back and talk about how you maybe1:41:18have convinced me I'm a left path1:41:20Satanist.1:41:20>> All right.1:41:22>> So, I think you use occult esoteric and1:41:25Satanism as a way to kind of badger1:41:27people. Is [laughter] that cuz you1:41:30because you won't disavow. You say I'm a1:41:32Satanist and that's that. And you and1:41:34you kind of leave it there without a1:41:36definition because when I hear your1:41:37definition of those words, it's like I1:41:40might be a Satanist, too.1:41:42>> What I'm trying to do and and I'm trying1:41:44to do it as transparently as possible1:41:47because I I do write a lot in the book1:41:49about the historicism behind this is I1:41:53am trying to push back at centuries of1:41:58conditioning around our religious models1:42:01and ideas. For example, if I use the1:42:04word demon, everyone has the same1:42:06association with that word. Something1:42:08evil, scary, terrible that will possess1:42:09you. Well, the original Greek demon or1:42:13Latin don was a neutral term. It just1:42:17meant a kind of workerbe spirit like a1:42:19jin or a genie. In Arab culture, we use1:42:22the term angel. And we all have the same1:42:24association. I may as well be using the1:42:26term Snow White. Everybody sees the1:42:29Disney cartoon even though the myth of1:42:31Snow White is centuries older than the1:42:33Disney cartoon. So Angel is Greek for1:42:36messenger and that's benign whereas the1:42:38other is bad. All I'm trying to do is to1:42:42take a sledgehammer to this conformity1:42:45and conditioning. The early Hebrews had1:42:49a concept of haatan or the Satan which1:42:53was sometimes translated as the1:42:55adversary or the prosecutor or the1:42:58disturber. This is the friction of1:43:00creativity without which we wouldn't be1:43:02ourselves. This is the friction that1:43:05refineses us when we suffer. I talked1:43:09about the experience of being fired and1:43:10what that led me to. The mythical1:43:14although I would say also veritable1:43:17force of those experiences is what the1:43:21primeval Hebrews referred to asaton.1:43:24I am trying to strip the bark off of1:43:28these conformities and give people a1:43:31vocabulary that is their own that is1:43:35free from centuries and centuries of1:43:38customary usage. I am trying in1:43:41esoterica although as you've rightly1:43:44said it's a very practical book it's1:43:46very hands-on book underlying the1:43:49techniques and the practicality is my1:43:52effort to1:43:57strip away1:43:59centuries if not millennia of customary1:44:02usage and try to recover the threads and1:44:06the fragments because that's really all1:44:08that we have of our earliest1:44:12spiritual practice among our most1:44:15primeval1:44:16ancestors even including Neanderthal men1:44:19and women who did have a spirituality1:44:21that would be somewhat recognizable to1:44:24us today. I want to get to a sense of1:44:28this fragmentaryary realization and what1:44:31it meant best as we can tell to the deep1:44:34ancients before our conformist1:44:38acculturation process got hold of it.1:44:41>> I people don't know that Neanderthalss1:44:43had art and music and1:44:45>> extraordinary. It's amazing.1:44:46>> Neanderthal men and women had statuary1:44:49which in the mid-9th century got termed1:44:51Venus figurines. They're little bulbous1:44:54female forms and they are thought to1:44:58have been either a mother goddess or a1:45:01fertility goddess. They had talismans,1:45:04things that we would recognize like1:45:06eagle talents or bear claws that were1:45:09presumably for help with the hunt. We1:45:11would look at these things in the 21st1:45:13century and we can recognize this1:45:15statuary. We can recognize these1:45:17talismans. I'm wearing a scarab around1:45:19my neck. And it's extraordinary that1:45:22these are our closest prehuman1:45:25ancestors. A lot like us,1:45:27>> but not us. Not us. And it suggests that1:45:30spirituality itself, extraysicality,1:45:34is not conditioned. It's it's realized.1:45:37It goes back to prehuman history.1:45:42>> I think people will be surprised to know1:45:44that you have a great respect for1:45:45Catholicism and1:45:48Really most religions you speak very1:45:49highly of. Didn't you say that1:45:51Catholicism was closest to the most1:45:54perfect religion or something like that?1:45:55>> The universal religion. Yeah. We have to1:45:57remember first of all I love Catholicism1:45:59and I would never say a word against1:46:01Catholicism which always surprises1:46:02people because they think Horowitz is so1:46:04heterodox and I may be heterodox but I1:46:07also have ideals and I I love that1:46:10tradition and I feel in some ways that1:46:11tradition saved my life.1:46:13>> Um it's not my commitment.1:46:15>> How did it save your life? I went1:46:16through a time of terrible emotional1:46:19suffering and I practiced a very steady1:46:24act of saint veneration to St. Jude and1:46:27I feel like there was a real opening in1:46:29my life on account of that. Now my1:46:32approach is that Catholicism is a kind1:46:37of vessel of the universal religion. By1:46:41which I mean this was the final1:46:45outcropping of a Roman culture of faith1:46:50which itself was the final outcropping1:46:53of Greco Egyptian religion. The1:46:56Egyptian, the Persian, the Mediterranean1:46:59faiths,1:47:01North African faiths were reconfigured1:47:05within Hellenic culture. Helenic culture1:47:07was reconfigured in its final expression1:47:11by Rome and Catholicism with St.1:47:13Veneration uh with the the boy savior uh1:47:18the earth mother you can call it Isis1:47:21and Horus, you can call it Mary and1:47:22Jesus. It was a a vessel for this1:47:25universal religion. And I think that in1:47:28quarters where you find hatred or1:47:30conspiracy theories for Catholicism,1:47:32it's it's because of that because it's1:47:35that last1:47:36vouch saving of a universal faith and I1:47:41enter it and I approach it as such.1:47:44>> I believe you. I'm not very religious,1:47:45but I think St. Michael saved my life1:47:47and I've been wearing his shield ever1:47:48since that day.1:47:49>> I noticed that. I was going to ask you1:47:51about that very thing. Yeah.1:47:53Um yeah, I was going through a hard time1:47:54and uh I just found myself in a Catholic1:47:57church and suddenly felt better. It was1:48:00church was empty and I was in St.1:48:02Michael's row and I just I don't know I1:48:04felt some I felt something.1:48:05>> One has to listen to these things.1:48:07Again, it's the disguised stranger1:48:10coming to us. I discovered the1:48:12miraculous medal uh the image of of Mary1:48:16from visions by Katherine Labberet in a1:48:18bookstore in New York City that was run1:48:20by the Paulines and they are they are a1:48:23devout order of nuns who maintain a1:48:26media ministry. Now unfortunately in our1:48:29world today bookstores like the Paul1:48:32Pauline's bookstore have closed in New1:48:34York City. Somehow I can spend $40 on a1:48:38pretzel at a concert, but I can't1:48:40support the Paulines. And the tragedy is1:48:43if you don't have those places,1:48:44someone's not going to discover St.1:48:46Michael or the Miraculous Medal or St.1:48:48Jude. And of course, we could be talking1:48:49about any number of faith traditions.1:48:52>> And we just piss away so much money in1:48:54this society. I hear about this place1:48:56closing and that place closing. Plenty1:48:59of money around. We We just piss it away1:49:01in places that that don't matter very1:49:03much.1:49:03>> Yeah.1:49:05Well, then what is Satanism to to you?1:49:08What what is everyone getting wrong?1:49:10Because I don't hear anything evil.1:49:12>> It's not a religion of maleficence or1:49:15cruelty or evil. Of course, there are1:49:18all kinds of different practices as1:49:19there are different individuals. But as1:49:22I see it and the way I speak of it1:49:25classically,1:49:27it is the abiding of radical1:49:31questioning, nonconformity,1:49:34upending received notions, saying no to1:49:38being told this is the way something is,1:49:42but saying I'm going to verify this for1:49:44myself. And I do think I'm not an1:49:46atheist.1:49:48I'm not a materialist. I do think1:49:50there's a metaphysical aspect to the1:49:52satanic. And I do think that one can1:49:55seek a relationship with the being whom1:49:59the ancient Hebrews calledatan1:50:02or in the Bible there is reference as we1:50:05were discussing earlier to the so-called1:50:07demon, a word we're not supposed to use,1:50:09Azazelle. And I think that the1:50:14individual1:50:15is much freer and is possessed of much1:50:18greater options than he or she believes.1:50:20Most people will hear this and reject it1:50:23outright. Most people will hear this and1:50:25say, "He is leading us into predition.1:50:28Don't listen to this guy. This goes to a1:50:30terrible place." How do I know that?1:50:34That's centuries and centuries and1:50:35century centuries of conditioning1:50:38speaking. Again,1:50:39>> I can't use Satanist in the title of1:50:41this episode.1:50:42>> Cannot. I cannot.1:50:43>> It will take all the oxygen out of the1:50:46room. And listen, this effort that I'm1:50:48making, it may fail. I am trying to1:50:51bring a degree of upending reasoning to1:50:57our faith traditions. And the term1:51:02Satan, as it's used in modern1:51:04parliament, is too great a windmill even1:51:07for me to tilt at. Sure.1:51:08>> But as I often say to people, you don't1:51:11turn back once you've begun an errand in1:51:14the classical sense. And that's my1:51:15commitment. And if I were trying to kiss1:51:18up to the room, if I were trying to kiss1:51:20up to the audience, I wouldn't talk1:51:22about it at all. But I want people to1:51:24have a sense of options. And even people1:51:26who don't like me and don't like my1:51:29ideas, maybe maybe they'll capture a1:51:32glimpse of the fact that if there's some1:51:34guy out there on the margins saying the1:51:36things I say, it affords them more room1:51:40for their own search and I'll settle for1:51:42that.1:51:43>> Have you ever lost any speaking gigs or1:51:45anything because you refuse to you have?1:51:47>> Absolutely. I was kicked out of a new1:51:49age organization with whom I had years1:51:52of gainful collaboration. I had written1:51:54a book for them as a fundraiser. I had1:51:58nothing but friendly relations and1:52:00somebody there started a whispering1:52:02campaign against me. Next thing I knew,1:52:04I was expelled. I was scrubbed from the1:52:07website and so on. There was a free1:52:09Masonic lodge that canceled to talk on1:52:11me. These are only the things I know1:52:12about. I'm sure there's lots of other1:52:14things I don't know about. But the fact1:52:16is when I look at people I admire,1:52:19people whose shoulders we stand on, they1:52:22suffered far greater calumny than I have1:52:25to defend their own beliefs. I spoke of1:52:28becoming a writer because I wanted to1:52:30defend the lives of spiritual messengers1:52:33who I thought were disparaged in the1:52:34mainstream. Those are my heroes. I'm not1:52:38going to run from expressing myself.1:52:41>> Those expulsions were probably useful1:52:43then. you had no use for a group that1:52:46wanted to throw you out.1:52:47>> They've certainly proven useful in that1:52:49they put a person face to face with what1:52:52he or she believes, what free expression1:52:55means. We all say it's just like we're1:52:57all against war. We're all for free1:52:59expression until we don't like it.1:53:01Right?1:53:02>> And so [laughter]1:53:03it teaches you something about humanity.1:53:05Last night we were watching an episode1:53:07of the Twilight Zone, famous episode,1:53:09The Shelter, where neighbors burst into1:53:11the guy's bomb shelter. And there goes1:53:13Rod Serling in all of 22 minutes1:53:15exposing us to human nature. Yep. So,1:53:17you learn something about human nature,1:53:19you learn something about yourself, and1:53:21in that sense, it's painful, but it's1:53:24educative.1:53:25>> That episode captures human nature1:53:28perfectly. The paranoia and how people1:53:30turn on each. A lot of my content is1:53:32based on Rod Sterling's work. Um, what1:53:35does it mean to walk the left path?1:53:37>> Well, the left-hand path, as I use it,1:53:40is a spiritual path that emphasizes1:53:44individualism, the individual wish,1:53:48self-recreation.1:53:49You might say that it focuses on my will1:53:53be done versus thy will be done. And1:53:56some people hear that and they don't1:53:58like it, and I understand that. But1:54:00let's take a breath. Most of the time1:54:02what most of us are seeking in the1:54:04spiritual search is some sense of of1:54:07agency of power not force not force1:54:10power to see through our wish for1:54:13expression in the world. And we1:54:15sometimes perfume it saying1:54:18>> sure1:54:18>> thy will be done with the right hand but1:54:20with the left hand saying I'm really1:54:22hoping it comports with my will.1:54:24>> And I really believe in the individual.1:54:27I believe in the ability of the mature1:54:29sensitive individual as a person to1:54:32identify his or her own path in life and1:54:36I believe in ethics which arise from1:54:38empathy and most people don't have it1:54:41regardless of how pretty they talk.1:54:44Ethics arise from the emotions and you1:54:46have to have fine emotions to really1:54:48even understand what ethics are. I write1:54:51to people with ethics and that's that's1:54:54to whom my appeals are made.1:54:57It's another rule is that don't1:54:59underestimate the power of emotions.1:55:00>> Mhm.1:55:01>> World stands on them.1:55:04>> A couple of questions I want to go off1:55:06script for.1:55:09Oriticism.1:55:12>> Well, it's from your book. You said um1:55:14we don't have Buddha, we have Buddhism.1:55:16The teacher becomes the teaching,1:55:17>> right?1:55:18>> And the teaching calcifies. So, you've1:55:20written a lot of books and one day1:55:22there's going to be a horriicism1:55:26and what will it get wrong about you?1:55:29>> Wow.1:55:30>> When you're gone.1:55:31>> Well, I'm referring to the fact that1:55:33there is in life a descending octave and1:55:36there's no getting away from it, right?1:55:37We don't have Buddha. We have Buddhism.1:55:40We don't have Christ. We have1:55:41Christianity or Christendom.1:55:44What if there's a Horowitz ism will get1:55:47wrong is it will bring orthodoxy to1:55:50these ideas. It will close them off. It1:55:52will slam the door closed. It will say1:55:54things like live for yourself without1:55:56being uncomfortable with that statement1:55:58as I am even as I believe in it from a1:56:02more complex point of view than a later1:56:06version might hold. The truth is all1:56:08these traditions are the same in the1:56:10sense that we cop to ideals but we live1:56:14according to what makes me feel safe,1:56:16what makes me feel unsafe, what title1:56:18can I claim that makes me sound like a1:56:20hero while puts the other person into an1:56:22uncomfortable little box. So1:56:25unfortunately due to this descending1:56:27current of humanity1:56:30pretty much every tradition winds up1:56:34winds up despite its pretty language1:56:36being a statement of I like and I don't1:56:38like. So I can't expect if there's ever1:56:41a iteration of what I'm into it'll be1:56:44much better. Uh if it is I'm I'm wrong1:56:48about human nature and human nature is1:56:50better than I think. I don't think it1:56:52is. [laughter] No, with with so many1:56:55religions, it's follow this book exactly1:56:58and you'll end up in paradise or1:57:00whatever. With your rules, it's follow1:57:02this exactly and it's going to hurt1:57:04anyway. It's going to hurt anyway, but1:57:07you may be happier at the end of the1:57:08day, and you may express yourself more1:57:10at the end of the day, and you may spend1:57:12less time falling asleep at night with1:57:14chips on your chest or or or or1:57:17complaining week in and week out to the1:57:19shrink and expressing yourself and and1:57:22doing more that makes you feel vital.1:57:24>> There's only one person on the earth1:57:26besides your mother who's allowed to1:57:27call you Mitchell. Tell me about Paul1:57:29Kraner.1:57:30>> Oh, [laughter]1:57:32may he rest in peace.1:57:33>> Yes. Uh Paul was a old hippie and and1:57:36beatnick and uh I got this pen literary1:57:40award in Oakland, California and they1:57:43were giving Paul a lifetime achievement1:57:45award and he was in declining health at1:57:49the time and he walked up to the podium1:57:51and he was limping and um and he got up1:57:54to the podium and some of us including1:57:57me were giving him a standing ovation1:57:59and just with the most impeccable1:58:01comedic timing he said, "Why was it1:58:04everyone standing?" [laughter]1:58:06It's like he was like a Lenny Bruce kind1:58:08of figure. And uh I don't know. You1:58:12know, he used to call me Mitchell and I1:58:14just put up with it. I don't let1:58:15producers call me Mitchell. [laughter]1:58:17And so Paul Kraner and mom were the only1:58:20ones who could do that.1:58:20>> That's that's rare company. [laughter]1:58:24[gasps]1:58:25>> There was another um anecdote that I1:58:28found interesting. Whose memorial was it1:58:31where the widow came up to you?1:58:32>> Oh, yeah.1:58:33>> And gave you a word?1:58:34>> Yeah. Um, I was at the memorial service1:58:37of a man named Irving. How1:58:40>> he was a socialist. He was a literary1:58:42critic. He was a great man of letters.1:58:44Big inspiration on me. He would not have1:58:46liked or be interested in any of the1:58:49topics that animate me today. But you1:58:52can't choose your heroes. And he was1:58:54one.1:58:55And after his memorial service, the1:58:57widow of another hero of mine, Michael1:58:59Harrington, anti-poverty socialist1:59:01activist, also a great influence, would1:59:04not have been interested in my topics at1:59:06all. He was an atheist. Mike's widow1:59:09came up to me and she took my hands and1:59:11she said, "Mitch,1:59:13standards. If you want to learn one1:59:16thing from Irving, that's it.1:59:18Standards." And I've tried to abide that1:59:20because when I write about controversial1:59:22themes, those themes are always very1:59:25foundationally grounded in a really1:59:29searching historicism and I hope in a1:59:32really searching ethics and1:59:34spirituality. So I took that to heart1:59:37although I took it into a different1:59:39neighborhood than the ones that those1:59:41guys worked in.1:59:42>> So you're always thinking standards with1:59:44your work.1:59:44>> Always constantly. I will never write1:59:46down a word, never write down a quote,1:59:49never write down an idea without1:59:51suffering it, test the idea by suffering1:59:54it, test the idea by suffering it. And I1:59:57I really try to live with things and I2:00:00try to ask myself rather than repeating2:00:04a quote or a story or reciting something2:00:07from memory, this was in the Bible, that2:00:09was in the Bible. Go back to the source2:00:11and you might be very surprised not only2:00:14at what's really there, but at how these2:00:16things differ according to different2:00:18traditions and translations. Reckon with2:00:21that, live with that. I like the2:00:22standard story because I have a saying2:00:25here that drives everybody nuts is we2:00:26never phone it in. We never phone it in.2:00:30>> Yeah. Yeah.2:00:31>> How does your book has financial advice?2:00:34How how does a youth democrat socialist2:00:37accountant,2:00:38>> right,2:00:39>> end up telling me to buy index funds,2:00:41which I do,2:00:41>> right? Oh, good. [laughter] Bravo. Your2:00:43your kids are going to be very happy for2:00:44that. I can assure you. Um, it's so2:00:47funny, man. I was uh I was I was a2:00:50treasurer of the youth section of2:00:52Democratic Socialist of America.2:00:54>> Not an easy gig,2:00:54>> right? Right.2:00:56>> I was one socialist who balanced2:00:58budgets. Um it's so funny because uh my2:01:01wife and I, Jacqueline, we were just2:01:02talking about this last night. We were2:01:03watching one of these financial talk2:01:05shows and they're going on and on about2:01:07CDs and versification and so forth. Um I2:01:11tell people, chin out, put your goddamn2:01:14money into the S&P 500 index fund. It'll2:01:17go down and it'll also go back up. And2:01:19if it goes down permanently, we're all2:01:21in a lot of trouble. And it ain't going2:01:22to go down permanently.2:01:23>> Nope. They won't let it happen. QQQ all2:01:26day long.2:01:26>> Exactly. All the big wigs have got all2:01:29their money there. And that's going to2:01:32be the first to get bailed out. And um I2:01:35am not a finance guy, but I have a lot2:01:38of in-laws who are. And once one2:01:40Thanksgiving I was sitting around with a2:01:42bunch of finance guys from Goldman Sachs2:01:45and other big banks and these guys2:01:47they're they're very confident and you2:01:49know they march into the world with2:01:51their shoulders swaggering and I said uh2:01:54let me ask you financial wizards a2:01:56question and I want you to be 100% frank2:01:59with me. My understanding is that no2:02:02securities product, no financial product2:02:04over time does better than the boring2:02:07old S&P 500. And to a person, they all2:02:11agreed. They all agreed. And one of the2:02:14things that has helped me in life and2:02:16that I share on a strictly practical2:02:18level with my readers is when I was in2:02:21publishing, we had a 401k plan. I socked2:02:24away as much money as I possibly could2:02:27into one place, the S&P 500. Those are2:02:30just the top 500 stocks in the market at2:02:32any given time. Diversification is a2:02:35marketing term. Yes, that's from people2:02:37who want to take commissions from you.2:02:39Park it in the boring old S&P 500.2:02:43>> Be chill. It will go down. It will go2:02:45back up. We watched it during COVID. It2:02:48was very rough. Stand your ground. You2:02:50will be happy. That's my advice.2:02:53>> It's great advice. Here's how I2:02:54diversify. S&P index, aerospace index,2:02:58healthcare index. That's it. I don't own2:03:00any stocks.2:03:01>> And that's where Elon's money is. That's2:03:05where Zuckerberg's money is. That's2:03:06where Sam Alman's money is. It ain't2:03:08going down.2:03:09>> It's not.2:03:10>> Yeah.2:03:12>> Are So, are you a capitalist? I I can't2:03:15I don't know where you Marx socialism,2:03:18Marxism. You're reading Lenin.2:03:19[laughter]2:03:19>> I do read Lenin.2:03:20>> What What are you trying to learn from2:03:21Lenin? What I grew to in Lenin is even2:03:24though he was an ardent materialist, he2:03:26was into self-development. Yes.2:03:28>> And he really believed in the2:03:30self-development project as did a lot of2:03:33people in his generation uh of Tsarist2:03:36Russia. Zorist Russia created its own2:03:38demise. Not only was it a horrible2:03:40[snorts]2:03:41system of governance that didn't allow a2:03:44middle class to flourish, didn't really2:03:46facilitate the conditions where people2:03:48could own property and have some degree2:03:50of of of freedom of search, freedom of2:03:52thought, freedom of expression. But2:03:55Zorist Russia made a fateful decision2:03:57which is that if we want to modernize,2:03:59we need a some sort of a a professional2:04:03bureaucracy. We need people who are2:04:05educated who can run the civil service2:04:07and we need of course engineers and2:04:09doctors and scientists. So they started2:04:12educating small clusters of young people2:04:15who hated the regime and the government2:04:17and one Vladimir Lenon was among them.2:04:20And um Lenin doted upon a mid-9th2:04:25century novel uh by a Russian2:04:28existentialist writer titled what is to2:04:30be done. He later named his own2:04:33pamphlet, what is to be done after this2:04:35novel. And within it appeared a2:04:37character named Rakmatav, who believed2:04:40ardently in self-development. He was2:04:42kind of a Russian hardcore version of2:04:46oh, I don't know, I guess you'd say an2:04:47American up by the bootstraps type2:04:49figure. And this inspired Lenin. And I2:04:52like the Russian writers and2:04:53existentialists because their point of2:04:56view is expressed2:04:58from2:05:00a country that has been steeped in2:05:04difficulty for many many generations2:05:07allowing, you know, stemming from a Zara2:05:10system that was truly backward and and2:05:12that that that the public hated. And so2:05:15these writers were as realist as they2:05:17come. and Lenon doted upon ideas of2:05:22self-development. He also liked the2:05:24novels of Jack London where the rugged2:05:28radical individualist was always the2:05:30hero. And so I'm always interested in2:05:33learning about the background reading of2:05:36great figures. I'm not a Leninist, but2:05:38I'm interested as hell in his life2:05:40because it was a difficult life and it2:05:42was a life animated by a singular goal.2:05:45That goal succeeded. That goal also2:05:47turned into a nightmare because it2:05:49succeeded with autocracy, paved the way2:05:51for Stalin. Uh, but I found I find2:05:53Lennon a fascinating figure.2:05:55>> I think that's allowed. I mean, every2:05:58time I put out a video about Hitler,2:05:59it's a banger. That doesn't mean we2:06:01endorse it, right?2:06:02>> It was a fascination.2:06:03>> And and I would ask the public I would2:06:06ask the public to question that in2:06:08themselves. And I realize it. I mean,2:06:09believe me, I watch enough Hitler2:06:11documentaries to program a whole2:06:13channel. So, I'm not up on some high2:06:15horse about it, but people will talk2:06:17about Hitler and the occult, for2:06:19example. It's wildly overstated.2:06:21Whereas, we never talk about or rarely2:06:23talk about Gandhi and the occult. Even2:06:25though Gandhi's relationship with Madame2:06:27HP Blovadski,2:06:29he testified repeatedly throughout his2:06:32life, ignited his first interest in2:06:36human equality,2:06:38the basic universality of all religions.2:06:42Well, tell that story of a struggling2:06:44young lawyer in London.2:06:45>> Absolutely. Nobody's interested in it.2:06:47They're interested in Hitler in the2:06:48occult, but Gandhi in the occult is is2:06:50is much closer to the Bowen in terms of2:06:52of truth.2:06:53>> And then I want to talk about the2:06:54founding fathers in the occult.2:06:55>> Oh, by all means. Um, Gandhi as a young2:06:59man was studying to be a lawyer in2:07:01London. And in 1889, things were going2:07:04terribly for him. He was isolated. He2:07:06was lonely. He failed his metriculation2:07:08exams. try being a vegetarian in London2:07:11in 1889. It's not very fun today, much2:07:14less then. And uh he was lonely and2:07:17isolated and he met a couple of2:07:20students, followers of Madame HP2:07:22Blovatzky who had fled India in the face2:07:25of scandal. Madam Blovatzky was this2:07:27mysterious worldtraveled Russian2:07:29occultist, both loved and damned. I love2:07:31her. and she was living in the Nodding2:07:34Hill section of London where she uh was2:07:38completing work on her she actually just2:07:41published her magnumopus the secret2:07:43doctrine two volume occult cosmology2:07:47>> of course2:07:48>> Gandhi was very nervous about meeting2:07:51her was invited to meet her went to meet2:07:53her and he said from that moment forward2:07:57until his own assassination he recorded2:08:00in interviews letters articles2:08:03that meeting Madame Bllovansky, the high2:08:05priestess of the occult,2:08:08ignited his first stirrings of a2:08:10philosophy of human universality, of2:08:14civic equality, of the equal footing on2:08:18which all religions should stand.2:08:22Theosophy had and has as its motto,2:08:25there is no religion higher than truth.2:08:28Gandhi later said all religions are true2:08:32and all have some flaw in them. You2:08:34could hear within the theosophical motto2:08:37an echo of Gandhi's with within Gandhi's2:08:40maxim.2:08:40>> How did she learn about him?2:08:43>> Oh, listen. He was an unknown young kid2:08:46studying law in London and a couple of2:08:48her followers asked him one day if he2:08:52could help them read the Bavad Gita in2:08:55its original Sanskrit. And he said, "I2:08:58could barely read the original Sanskrit2:09:00myself. I wanted to get away from the2:09:03Hinduism of my parents. I thought it was2:09:05a bunch of superstition and nonsense. I2:09:08was not interested in a religious text."2:09:10But I was very lonely. I was very2:09:12isolated. And if these two guys wanted2:09:14to be my friends, I would agree to it.2:09:16And then they asked him, "By the way,2:09:18would you like to meet the high2:09:19priestess of the occult herself, Madame2:09:21HP Blazki?" And he was shocked and said2:09:24I was2:09:24>> a chain of events from asking for a2:09:26translation to throw out the empire.2:09:28>> Just remarkable. And he knew Madame2:09:30Bllovansky as this anti-colonial2:09:33activist from the old country. So he2:09:35felt sympathy and he went to meet her2:09:37and she gave him a copy of a shorter2:09:40book of hers called the key to Theosophy2:09:42and it speaks of human universality and2:09:45Gandhi said this was the ignition point2:09:48that launched his philosophy. So,2:09:50everybody wants to talk about Hitler and2:09:51the occult and it's so exciting and so2:09:53forth and so on, but Gandhi and the2:09:57occult is a a much closer to the bone2:10:01version of historical truth that's2:10:03unknown. If you get a biography of2:10:05Gandhi today, you'll be surprised if2:10:07there's three lines about Manablovatki2:10:09in there, despite how formative she was2:10:12on his development, we've written it out2:10:14of history. What did he take from her2:10:16that that like practically that we can2:10:19see2:10:21>> her key teaching at that time is that2:10:24all of humanity's religions grew from2:10:28one underground occult source that we've2:10:31lost track of.2:10:32>> And she referred to this as the secret2:10:34doctrine. and all of our religions, all2:10:38of our ethical philosophies are like2:10:41trees that spring up from this2:10:43underground water source. And so he came2:10:46to feel if that's true, and he felt that2:10:51it was in fact true, it also means that2:10:54our differences are simply surface2:10:57differences and that all religions, all2:10:59beings, whatever their cast or2:11:01background, are essentially equal. and2:11:04he credited her with that realization.2:11:07It fermented the largest democratic2:11:10revolution, nonviolent democratic2:11:12revolution in human history. And here we2:11:15are. Nobody knows about it. Madam2:11:17Bllovadsky died an American citizen. She2:11:19was very proud of being an American2:11:21citizen. Nobody's heard of her in our2:11:24country. Or if they have, they're like,2:11:26"Oh, that charlatan, that fake." The2:11:28story is so much deeper. And this is how2:11:30history gets neglected. And she died2:11:33young, didn't she?2:11:34>> 59 years old.2:11:35>> Oh. So, what do people get wrong about2:11:37her in theosophy? Because when I think2:11:40of ancient Egyptian religion, Sumerian,2:11:42Catholicism, sounds like she might be on2:11:45to something.2:11:46>> Yeah. They think of her as a fake. They2:11:48think of her as a charlatan. They think2:11:49of her as a purveyor of phony2:11:52mediumistic tricks. And what they don't2:11:54realize is that our world would look2:11:57radically different today without Madame2:12:00HP Blovatsky. Her influence traversed2:12:03the globe in the late 19th century and2:12:07resulted in the culture of spiritual2:12:09search of which I am a part today. She2:12:13and her colleagues reignited Buddhist2:12:16practice in the east where it was2:12:18withering in the nation of Sri Lanka uh2:12:22even in in Japan in uh uh far-flung2:12:27parts of India where vadic practice2:12:30Hinduism Buddhism were being chipped2:12:32away by the wellfunded machinery of2:12:36colonialism.2:12:37She and her compatriots not only revived2:12:40the traditional faiths in the east, but2:12:43they sent shock waves throughout the2:12:45world2:12:47perveying the message that there is a2:12:51secret doctrine. There is an esoteric2:12:53search. There is a an unknown esoteric2:12:58core to religions and that it's the2:13:00birthright of every individual to search2:13:02for these things. It was almost like a2:13:05worldwide2:13:07seismic version of what Henry David2:13:09Thorough was trying to get across in2:13:11Walden, but it played out on this global2:13:14stage and it created the culture of2:13:16search that I'm part of today.2:13:19>> What was so what was so attractive about2:13:22her? Because you talk about Theorough2:13:24where I don't consider him an2:13:26outdoorsman at all. He's writing about2:13:28the outdoors, but he wasn't much of an2:13:29outdoorsman. Right.2:13:30>> But Madam Bloatsky, she lived it.2:13:32>> She lived it. She was born in Tsarist,2:13:34Russia. She was part of minor nobility,2:13:37but she suffered so much harassment that2:13:39she had to travel in order to search.2:13:42>> Why harassment?2:13:43>> Oh, look, in Torist Russia, I mean,2:13:46Paradise Lost was banned under the2:13:48Tsarist regime. You know, the the idea2:13:50of anything that went outside the2:13:51Orthodox church was above ground2:13:54considered verboten. And so she traveled2:13:58the world as she described it, searching2:14:00for esoteric truths, came to the United2:14:02States in the early 1870s, was2:14:05fascinated with spiritualism and seance2:14:08and midnight raps. Not because she2:14:09thought it was the real thing or the2:14:11real McCoy, but because she said, "Here2:14:14is an opening. Here is a culture that is2:14:17experimental. Here is a culture that for2:14:20all its contradictions2:14:22protects the individual search for2:14:24meaning." And so she felt that the soil2:14:27of the United States at that time was2:14:29the place from which could spring a2:14:31worldwide revolution in spiritual2:14:34search. And she told of being advised by2:14:37these mysterious adepts from the east.2:14:39And people felt she was inventing it,2:14:41making it up. But dig this, dig this.2:14:43Americans at that time, Westerners in2:14:47general had not really heard much about2:14:50gurus and swamies and robed adepts from2:14:53the east. These things were completely2:14:55alien to Americans. India was considered2:14:58as distant as the surface of another2:15:01planet. And when such teachers who were2:15:04altogether real did begin to come to2:15:06America in the 1890s then later in the2:15:0919th century we Americans were able to2:15:12recognize them because of her2:15:14narratives. Her narratives made it into2:15:16the press. Her narratives were2:15:19sensationalistically treated by the2:15:22media and thus introduced everyday2:15:24Americans to things they might not have2:15:26recognized. So when the Maharishi Mahesh2:15:30Yogi came to the west to teach2:15:31transcendental meditation in 1959,2:15:35Americans could place him immediately2:15:37and people a generation earlier from him2:15:40because of the narrative that she2:15:41introduced,2:15:43>> right?2:15:43>> We knew, we understood something. I get2:15:46it. I get it. This is one of these holy2:15:48men from the east. That was an alien2:15:50idea to Americans in the Victorian age.2:15:53>> So how about the occult with the2:15:55founding fathers? Cuz it's it's there,2:15:56isn't there? Oh, it's absolutely there.2:15:59Look for it in the connection of many of2:16:02the founders to Freemasonry. An2:16:05initiatory esoteric organization that2:16:08uses symbolism as a means of teaching2:16:11ethical development emerged above ground2:16:14for the first time with the Grand Lodge2:16:17of England in the early 1700s, but has2:16:20roots that I think go back to the2:16:22cathedral builders who used symbolic and2:16:26pneumonic devices for memory as they2:16:29were recording symbols into the great2:16:32cathedrals. I think occultism2:16:35emerged in different ways. I beg pardon.2:16:38Freemasonry emerged in different ways2:16:40and through different iterations during2:16:42the occult renaissance. You had certain2:16:44initiatory brotherhoods and orders, some2:16:47of which might not have actually existed2:16:49but might have been thought movements2:16:50like reservianism. And all of this2:16:53eventually converged into the initiatory2:16:57order called Freemasonry. And you start2:17:00to see the first telltale references2:17:031638 mid600s and then in 17172:17:08the United Lodge of England emerges2:17:11above ground in London. Now many of the2:17:14founders were freemasons. This includes2:17:18George Washington.2:17:20This includes Benjamin Franklin. This2:17:23includes Paul Rivere, John Hancock. an2:17:27outsized number of Washington's2:17:28generals, an outsized number of the2:17:31signers of the declaration, the framers2:17:33of the constitution. And this is very2:17:35important. People look for this2:17:37conspiracy narrative in this. Look2:17:39somewhere else.2:17:41Masonry2:17:43was a radically ecumenical organization.2:17:46At least according to ideals, anyone who2:17:49believed in a creator could be a member.2:17:53and it fostered a protection of the2:17:56individual search for meaning, albeit2:17:58within a clandestine brotherhood. Some2:18:01of these ideals as they eventually got2:18:05translated into law in the American2:18:07colonies and finally codified into the2:18:10constitution were encountered by the2:18:14early founders and framers due to their2:18:17affiliation with Freemasonry. We forget2:18:20how agrarian a nation America was. How2:18:23rural a nation America was. We didn't2:18:27have hospitals and cathedrals and2:18:28libraries. We had farms, business, a2:18:32graange to affiliate yourself with an2:18:35initiatory order, a clandestine2:18:38initiatory order that used right,2:18:41ritual, occult symbol. That was a huge2:18:45commitment for an individual in an2:18:47agrarian nation. It was a conveyance of2:18:50ideas. It it it stands to reason there2:18:53were so few ties outside of family2:18:55church business. To attach yourself to2:18:57initiatory order of that type in a rural2:19:00society, I think has to be seen as a2:19:04real arterial influence in a person's2:19:06life.2:19:06>> Sure. So, I am not a Freemason, but I am2:19:10a great admirer of Freemasonry because I2:19:12believe that affiliation2:19:14introduced or helped introduce ideas2:19:17into colonial life that were later2:19:20codified into the Constitution.2:19:24>> How about Wallace's influence on the on2:19:28the dollar bill?2:19:29>> Absolutely wild. People want to talk2:19:32about occult influences. Look at the2:19:34back of the dollar bill. The mysterious2:19:36eye and pyramid2:19:38>> with the Latin maxim around it. Annuits2:19:41no ordo secllorum. Providence smiles on2:19:44our new order of the ages. It is not a2:19:47masonic symbol per se, but I think it's2:19:49fair to say that it's a leaf from2:19:51Freemasonry. It's inspired by2:19:53Freemasonry.2:19:55Um, by the way, the subcommittee that2:19:57designed that2:20:00beautiful, alluring symbol was chaired2:20:02by none other than Benjamin Franklin2:20:04himself, a Freemason.2:20:07>> We see the square and compass on the2:20:09bill as well.2:20:11>> And I think that the ideals behind the2:20:14image, while it's not a Masonic image,2:20:17were masonic to the core. These fra2:20:20framers wanted to associate the new2:20:23republic with the great civilizations of2:20:26antiquity. Rome, Greece, Egypt, Sparta.2:20:29You see it in our architecture. Just2:20:31walk around DC. It's a temple to2:20:33esoteric imagery. My god, the Library of2:20:35Congress, you know, and you see it in2:20:37other cities as well. Chicago, New York.2:20:40Um,2:20:42they wanted to associate the New2:20:43Republic with a great chain of2:20:44civilizations2:20:46that probed the search for being, that2:20:50saw themselves as expressions of2:20:52providence, that in some cases really2:20:55did protect the individual search for2:20:57meaning. Rome could be a brutal2:20:59conqueror, but Rome also afforded2:21:02conquered peoples religious freedom and2:21:04not infrequently incorporated some of2:21:06their religious views into its own gods2:21:09and rights and rituals.2:21:11>> And there were a very high set of ideals2:21:14behind the design of the eye and2:21:17pyramid. One of them being that material2:21:21sustenance is incomplete without inner2:21:24knowing or the eye of providence. Now2:21:27this symbol which is the on the reverse2:21:30of the great seal of the United States,2:21:32the obverse being the more familiar2:21:35eagle with the2:21:37um olive branches and and arrows2:21:39clutched in its claws. This symbol uh2:21:42was unfamiliar to most Americans until2:21:46uh during the administration of Franklin2:21:48Roosevelt. Roosevelt himself a Freemason2:21:51and his secretary of agriculture later2:21:53his vice president Henry Wallace himself2:21:56a Freemason as well as a theosophist I2:21:59should add. um they came up together2:22:03with the idea of minting that symbol2:22:06God's smiles on our new order of the2:22:08ages into some kind of coinage which2:22:13they thought would inspire Americans2:22:15during the depression and Wallace2:22:17associated New Order of the Ages with2:22:19New Deal of the Ages.2:22:21>> Oh, okay.2:22:22>> And eventually they determined to place2:22:24the symbol on the back of the US dollar2:22:26bill and in the US Treasury you can find2:22:29records. I write about this in my book,2:22:31Occult America. You can find records of2:22:34Roosevelt's own handwriting supervising2:22:37the placement of the mysterious iron2:22:39pyramid on the back of our dollar bill,2:22:42where it appeared for the first time in2:22:441935. And for the very first time, the2:22:47mass of Americans became familiar with2:22:50this esoteric and yes, occult symbol2:22:53that previously had been just used for2:22:55official business and was relatively2:22:57unknown. I think it's one of the most2:22:58beautiful2:23:00expressions of ideals at the founding of2:23:04this nation.2:23:05>> So a cult, we're really just talking2:23:07about hidden knowledge.2:23:08>> Hidden knowledge, nothing more.2:23:10>> It's hidden. It's secret because it was2:23:12left to decay. It was left to neglect.2:23:15Is there a hidden history? Of course2:23:16there is. We're talking about Gandhi and2:23:18Blovatzky.2:23:20>> You won't learn about that in most2:23:21biographies of Gandhi. You'll see maybe2:23:23scant mention of Madame Bllovatzky, if2:23:25that at all. It's not hidden because2:23:28it's it's concealed. It's hidden because2:23:30it's neglected.2:23:34>> I'm going to change gears for a quick2:23:35second. I think I saw in one of your2:23:38books, maybe this one, mentioning Daryl2:23:40Bem's work.2:23:41>> Oh, I am a big admire of Daryl Bem,2:23:43great parasychologist.2:23:45Daryl is a clinical psychologist at2:23:49Cornell University. He conducted an2:23:52extraordinary decade of experiments2:23:54which he published as a paper in 20112:23:57and these experiments were into the2:24:00question of precognition2:24:02and he found evidence of precognition in2:24:07a very stringently designed series of2:24:09experiments in which people were shown2:24:12images that were meant to elicit a2:24:15bodily response. They could be violent2:24:17images or they could be erotic images.2:24:19Yes.2:24:19>> And what he found was that moments2:24:21before the image was displayed, the2:24:24bodily response would begin to manifest2:24:27like secretion of sweat or adrenaline or2:24:30something of that nature. But in these2:24:34experiments, he also included two2:24:36radically and remarkably innovative2:24:39experiments which caused tremendous2:24:41controversy and which have since2:24:44skeptics be damned been widely repeated2:24:48and validated in metaanalyses.2:24:51Daryl found evidence for what I'll call2:24:55cognitive retrocausality. In short, in2:24:58short, he found that if people were2:25:01given very simple memorization exams,2:25:04they would get your average score,2:25:06nothing surprising, nothing out of2:25:07bounds. If you introduced a wrinkle to2:25:10the experiment and you asked subjects to2:25:13continue studying after the fact, after2:25:16they took an exam, their scores would2:25:20spike by a slight statistical degree,2:25:23but actually a significant statistical2:25:26degree2:25:26>> beyond random.2:25:27>> Oh, absolutely beyond random, hands2:25:29down, of maybe 2%. Something of that2:25:31nature. not Zeus throwing lightning2:25:34bolts to Earth, but something considered2:25:36very statistically significant within2:25:39the schema of cognitive psychology. And2:25:42Daryl reasoned that there is in effect a2:25:45reaching backwards2:25:48in time2:25:49>> in time2:25:50>> in time of people's uh uh functional2:25:53ability in this case cognitive ability2:25:57on memory exams. And of course there2:25:58were howls of protest even though2:26:00Daryl's paper was heavily vetted and2:26:03published in a standard journal of2:26:06social psychology with no sympathies2:26:10towards his thesis.2:26:12>> That's true. He just said this is what2:26:14happened.2:26:14>> He said this is what happened. He2:26:15documented it stringently. There was so2:26:18much calumny2:26:19>> directed against him. So much2:26:21misinformation. And you can read it2:26:24>> on Wikipedia. Sure. The home of2:26:26misinformation about parasychology. The2:26:28home of it.2:26:29>> Great place to learn about the2:26:31Napoleonic Wars. Terrible place to learn2:26:33about parasychology. It spiked. Um2:26:37that's due to uh activist editors who2:26:39were dedicated to discrediting any2:26:41parasychological studies regardless of2:26:43excellence in methodology and2:26:45replication. And these these are facts.2:26:48That's why my books are heavily2:26:50footnoted. And I ask people to go to my2:26:52footnotes, look at my footnotes, and2:26:54hold my feet to the fire if I am2:26:56exaggerating because that's not my wish.2:26:58>> Well, let's detour for a quick second.2:27:00Why Why is there a professional skeptic2:27:02industry? What why is that useful?2:27:05It seems to me that the ultimate sin2:27:09within western intellectual culture is2:27:12to say that anything extraysical or2:27:15spiritual or religious has any empirical2:27:19concrete impact on our normal tactile2:27:23world. You can talk about religion in2:27:26terms of myth, meaning theology.2:27:30The minute you cross the bridge of2:27:32suggesting that anything extra physical,2:27:35let's say precognition, has some actual2:27:38impact on our world, regardless of how2:27:41stringently the evidence is gathered,2:27:44vetted, analyzed, replicated, you are2:27:48cast out. That is the one unforgivable2:27:51sin within opinion making lettered2:27:56culture.2:27:58primary reference material, wiki, first2:28:00and foremost,2:28:02social sciences, mainstream journalism,2:28:06mainstream letters.2:28:08It's a point of view that's2:28:09unsustainable because the evidence is2:28:11just so strong. We could do a whole show2:28:13on Daryl's research. It's extraordinary2:28:15and its replication has proven beyond2:28:18any reasonable doubt that these were not2:28:21chance hits or accidents. His2:28:25research has been proven confirmatory in2:28:27a meta analysis involving 90 trials in2:28:3233 different nations in 14 different2:28:35labs. We don't even have that kind of2:28:37data for aspirin. And [laughter]2:28:40these numbers are hardcore numbers.2:28:42Doesn't mean that every experiment2:28:44replicated his work. It did not.2:28:45>> It did not.2:28:46>> But what a metaanalysis does is it2:28:48doesn't seek uniform replication. It2:28:50seeks to mitigate against accident or2:28:52happen stance. Right.2:28:53>> And as that goes, his data is2:28:56bulletproof and replicated. I urge2:28:59people to go into my footnotes and tell2:29:01me where I'm exaggerating. Tell me where2:29:03I've stuck my neck out too far because I2:29:07am as dedicated to verity in describing2:29:10these results as pseudo skeptics are to2:29:14spiking them. So hold me hold my feet to2:29:17the fire. What Daryl discovered is2:29:19extraordinary. and he and Dean Raiden2:29:23and other people who work in the2:29:24parasychology field who are few. They2:29:27are people of methodological excellence2:29:30and there is a professional skeptic2:29:33apparatus or pseudoskeepic or2:29:35pseudorationalist apparatus that cannot2:29:38tolerate it and they cannot tolerate it2:29:40for reasons of sentiment which is2:29:42because the data doesn't mean anything2:29:44to them and in most cases they don't2:29:45even know the data. They can't tolerate2:29:48it because they will not accept the2:29:50divide of2:29:52extraysical effect crossing into tactile2:29:56world. They don't believe in the extra2:29:57physical. It's a matter of religious2:30:00secular2:30:02religious faith. For them, they're2:30:04materialist.2:30:05>> I've seen critiques of your book that2:30:06I've read and and I've read2:30:08>> this guy didn't read the book.2:30:10>> This is a critique. He didn't read the2:30:12book2:30:12>> and won't debate me.2:30:14>> Won't debate you.2:30:14>> They run from me. I have challenged any2:30:17number of credentialed skeptics to2:30:19debates. They run. They run because the2:30:24data is tough. It's hard one. It's not2:30:26easy to get your mind around this stuff.2:30:28>> Yeah.2:30:28>> You know, you really have to go deep2:30:30into this data to understand its2:30:32validity and replication.2:30:35And uh if you're going to do a hit-and-2:30:37run attack,2:30:38>> I'm not the guy you want to be sitting2:30:39across from.2:30:40>> No, you're not. Um, and it's it's so2:30:43astounding because we've all had2:30:44synchronicities or coincidence. We've2:30:46all experienced it. They have as well2:30:48and they're denying it.2:30:49>> Absolutely.2:30:51>> So, tell me about manifestation in the2:30:54future if I'm a Thai boxer.2:30:56>> Oh, this is very interesting. There's a2:30:59>> This is wild.2:31:00>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a Thai2:31:01kickboxer named Spencer Hanley, champion2:31:04fighter, and he was nine days out from a2:31:08championship bout. and he said, "I'm2:31:11feeling really good about my training,2:31:13but I wonder if you could recommend2:31:14something that will strengthen my mental2:31:18game." And so I gave him an exercise,2:31:21very simple, very ordinary exercise2:31:23called the 30-day mental challenge,2:31:25which just involves directing your2:31:28thoughts to the degree possible along2:31:30productive lines for 30 days. I'm I'm2:31:33simplifying it, but that's the basic uh2:31:36gist of it. And so he said to me,"Well,2:31:39look, I like this and I'm going to do2:31:41it, but this is 30 days. I need2:31:44something that's going to prep me for a2:31:45fight that's nine days away." And I said2:31:47to him, "Spencer, this will prep you for2:31:50it." And I walked him through Daryl2:31:52Bem's research. I walked him through the2:31:54replication of the research. I walked2:31:56him through the warranted belief that2:32:00Daryl's research deserves. And I said to2:32:04him, "Working on your mental game after2:32:06the fight is very likely to have a2:32:08cognitive reachback effect that improves2:32:11your mental game during the fight." And2:32:14I said, "If nothing else, I can assure2:32:16you your opponent's coaches are not2:32:18talking to him about retrocausality.2:32:20They're not. I promise." And [laughter]2:32:22so, [gasps]2:32:24>> so he did it. And you can you can you2:32:27can watch the fight on YouTube. It was a2:32:29championship bout outside of Houston. He2:32:32came out. I don't know why. He was2:32:33wearing a Hawaiian lelay around his2:32:35neck.2:32:35>> Very relaxed,2:32:36>> right? Relaxed, at ease, in good humor,2:32:40respectful to his opponent, but he was2:32:41in command from the bell. He was in2:32:43command and he won handily.2:32:46>> Now, for his entry music, the fighters2:32:48can choose their own entry music, and2:32:50usually they'll choose this ear bleeding2:32:52drill rap or technal.2:32:55>> He chose the Belinda Carile song, Heaven2:32:57is a Place on Earth. And one of the ring2:32:59announcers said, "The fact that he's2:33:01coming out to Belinda Carlile makes me2:33:03so happy.2:33:05This is the simple truth.2:33:07Two days later, I had not written about2:33:10this, talked about this, mentioned this2:33:12to anybody. Blinda Carlile,2:33:16who I've been in love with since age 17,2:33:19>> sure,2:33:20>> leaves me two voicemails telling me, "I2:33:24just want you to know I've been reading2:33:26your work and I really like it and I'm a2:33:28fan and you know, bravo to you for what2:33:30you do." I mean, I dying happy. 3 2 1,2:33:34>> right?2:33:35>> The whole confluence of events was just2:33:37extraordinary. That's the only way I can2:33:39describe it. There are these hidden2:33:41tendrils. And when we catch a glimpse of2:33:44these hidden tendrils, we know that that2:33:47life is not just cognition and and motor2:33:50skill. It's it's something else.2:33:52>> It has to be.2:33:52>> Yeah.2:33:54>> I just think it's so funny that we've2:33:56got black flag, circle jerks, dead2:33:58Kennedys, but there's always room for2:34:00Belinda Carlile.2:34:01>> There is always room for And I love her.2:34:03Listen, she came out of punk. The Go-Os2:34:05came out of punk, so she didn't say2:34:07that. Anyone who says the go- go didn't2:34:08rock is wrong.2:34:10>> Totally. I love them. They upended2:34:12things when I was 16, 17.2:34:14>> Uh we had all had them on our walls.2:34:17>> Yeah.2:34:18>> There was something2:34:21in the rules that2:34:25really struck me.2:34:26>> Mhm.2:34:27>> And it was about forgiveness.2:34:30[laughter and gasps]2:34:30>> You know what I'm talking about.2:34:31>> Don't come to horror what's for2:34:32forgiveness. No, I I'm not against2:34:34forgiveness, but I'm against it as a2:34:36blanket rule. I think it gets uh2:34:37presented to us.2:34:39>> I liked it is if someone causes you2:34:41trauma, you have no you don't have to2:34:44forgive that.2:34:44>> You don't have to for you can abide. I2:34:47counsel abiding versus forgiving. I2:34:51think that forgiveness through2:34:53conditioning has been presented to us as2:34:55this indispensable spiritual law. And I2:35:00dispute that because I think it can tear2:35:01a person too. When a person has suffered2:35:04trauma as as we all have,2:35:09let that be refining. Let that be a go2:35:12to something better. Let that be a a2:35:15profound realization that hits me with2:35:18the force of never wanting if I'm if I'm2:35:21able to visit such a thing on another2:35:24person. But forgiving, if it comes2:35:27natural to you and you so wish, then by2:35:29all means. But I don't think forgiveness2:35:31is this absolutely necessary escape2:35:35hatch or this must pass through tollgate2:35:38before going on to something higher and2:35:40greater and better. I don't see it as a2:35:43spiritual law. I don't see it as an2:35:45ethical imperative. I see it as an idea2:35:49that might fit some situations and not2:35:51others. And although I venerate the 122:35:54steps and I venerate modern teachings2:35:57like Course in Miracles, the channel2:35:59text and I2:36:01>> You've narrated the 12 steps, haven't2:36:02you?2:36:02>> Yes, I have. One of the proudest acts of2:36:05my career.2:36:06>> It should be2:36:06>> one of the proudest acts of my career. I2:36:08love Bill Wilson and I venerate the 122:36:10steps. But I don't want people to feel2:36:12blocked off from spiritual paths like2:36:15that. If forgiveness presents a problem,2:36:18I understand the rationale. And if it2:36:20works for the individual, I am first in2:36:21line to shake that person's hand, but I2:36:24don't want people to feel like2:36:25spirituality2:36:27has rules that make it necessary to pass2:36:31go before you can do something else. I2:36:33think that suffering can be a a go. It2:36:38can be abided. Doesn't have to be2:36:39forgiven.2:36:41There's going to be a lot of people who2:36:42are kind of happy to hear that because2:36:44they're maybe it's a woman who was2:36:47attacked and she feels like2:36:50>> I'm not a good person because I can't2:36:51forgive what happened to me2:36:52>> and my heart goes out to that person.2:36:55>> She is.2:36:56>> She is. She is. I have witnessed seekers2:37:00torn in two because they're told you2:37:04have to use this language. You have to2:37:05use language of forgiveness or service2:37:08or thy will be done or something else or2:37:11non-attachment, non-identification,2:37:14personality versus essence. These things2:37:17as I see it are all2:37:20they're artifice. They're human2:37:22constructions. All religions2:37:25have been created at the hands of human2:37:28beings2:37:29and they all derive from a certain time2:37:33and place to whose needs they responded.2:37:36So most of our religions, for example,2:37:38came out of highly stratified cast-based2:37:41societies where a person had no greater2:37:44likelihood of exiting the cast into2:37:48which he or she was born than walking2:37:51the surface of another planet. And the2:37:55religions, Abrahamic religion, Vadic2:37:57religions sought to compensate for that2:37:59by forecasting deliverance in some2:38:02future state of being. That is a2:38:07response to the predicament of an age2:38:09and an era. All I'm really trying to say2:38:11is verify question. Ask again, how do I2:38:16know that's true? The individual could2:38:19go on to extraordinary ethical2:38:21development and happiness without2:38:24forgiving and shouldn't feel chained to2:38:26that as a musto or an infallible law.2:38:30It's conceptual. It's not legal. And I2:38:32want people to feel a flexibility.2:38:36>> That's nicely said. Um, what about the2:38:39rule about the death of your tormentor?2:38:42>> That's [snorts] that's a striking one.2:38:45>> People suffer. People suffer at the2:38:47hands of bullies and tormentors. And2:38:49sometimes they just can't find a way2:38:51out. And I just want to say, William2:38:54James, the great American philosopher,2:38:55used to say to people who were suffering2:38:57suicidal thoughts, can you stand it one2:39:00more day? Can you stand it just one more2:39:03day? Because extraordinary turnarounds2:39:06occur. Remarkable things happen. And2:39:09what I want to say to people who are2:39:11suffering from a tormentor, first of2:39:13all, get away from that person. If you2:39:15absolutely cannot get away from that2:39:18person or for the time being, you cannot2:39:20get away from that person. Keep in mind,2:39:24extraordinary things happen all the2:39:26time. Just as we are visited by2:39:28catastrophe, we are also visited visited2:39:31by just remarkable unbidden good news2:39:35and tidings. A bully, a tormentor, a2:39:39cruel person.2:39:41Could they just disappear? Could they2:39:43just die? Could they exit the scene?2:39:46Absolutely.2:39:47>> And that's okay.2:39:48>> Yes, that's okay. Don't trouble yourself2:39:52feeling that that's not okay. We live in2:39:55a world of extraordinary2:39:58suffering and catastrophe, most of it2:40:01unbidden and undeserved. And we live in2:40:03a world of extraordinary good news and2:40:06remarkable tidings for which we are in2:40:09debt. If you are suffering at someone's2:40:11hands and that person disappears, go on2:40:15with your life and be better to your2:40:17neighbor. But don't give up a sense of I2:40:22don't like to use the word faith because2:40:23I speak in terms of persistence more2:40:25than faith. But it's warranted to2:40:28persist in the verite that that person2:40:31could disappear all of a sudden. It2:40:33happens all the time and you will be2:40:36free and you will rediscover yourself as2:40:38a person of good humor and relaxation.2:40:41And I wish it for everyone who's2:40:42suffering2:40:44>> because there were a few rules that2:40:45spoke to me because being a a bright2:40:48student in the New York public school2:40:49system was not great for me early on. So2:40:53lesson 42 is um learn to fight.2:40:57>> Not a bad idea.2:40:58>> So I did that.2:40:59>> Good for you.2:41:01>> Did you Were you bullied?2:41:02>> Oh yeah, I was.2:41:04>> Of course you were.2:41:05>> And anybody who's different gets2:41:06bullied.2:41:07>> There's anger in your list. Righteous2:41:09anger. But I but it's there.2:41:10>> There's definitely anger in my list.2:41:12Anger is part of life. Sorrow is part of2:41:14life. Extraordinary joy is part of life.2:41:18I mean, my god, last night, this is why2:41:20I'm so glad you brought me to Vegas.2:41:22Last night, um, my wife, Jacqueline2:41:24Castell, and I um, we2:41:29repeated our wedding vows at the2:41:32Graceland Chapel with Elvis officiating.2:41:35>> Perfect.2:41:36>> You should have seen the smile on my2:41:37face. Perfect. is a dream come true. Um,2:41:41when I was 12 years old, I had tickets2:41:43to see Elvis live. He died five days2:41:46before the concert. I cried and cried.2:41:50>> Now, all I'm really trying to get across2:41:53is, do I anger? I do. Do I incredible2:41:59joy? I do. Last night was a night of joy2:42:03to have Elvis officiating at our2:42:05wedding. And I could tell you this. Uh2:42:08he played um and we sang with him God2:42:11Save the Queen, the Pistols version.2:42:12Yeah.2:42:12>> Oh, you just gave me chills. Elvis2:42:14singing Sex Pistols is amazing.2:42:16>> Sing God Save [laughter] the Queen with2:42:18Elvis Presley. Um that was a moment.2:42:22Yeah. So, uh let joy flow, you know, let2:42:25anger flow, but let ethics flow too. Let2:42:28reciprocity flow too. Let empathy flow2:42:31too.2:42:32We're human beings and we live under a2:42:35myriad of laws and forces. Don't tear2:42:38yourself apart. Learn to live better2:42:40within them.2:42:42>> So,2:42:44I'm going to I'm going to challenge you2:42:45now because you don't have much hope for2:42:48humanity. I'm going to challenge you to2:42:49give us a little hope and land this2:42:51plane for everybody listening. Can we2:42:53can we use your work to land on a2:42:56positive note? Because there's a lot of2:42:58positivity in it.2:42:59>> The individual can. the individual can.2:43:02I place no stock in humanity as a whole.2:43:05Dare say I don't love humanity as a2:43:08whole. I see humanity uh talking one way2:43:11and conducting itself another. And2:43:14that's true of most individuals as well.2:43:16But the individual to whom I appeal is2:43:18the person with a finess of emotion,2:43:21with the finess of a search, who's2:43:23capable of holding a question. That's2:43:25the individual I love and wish to2:43:28encourage. And that person can find him2:43:31or herself. I hope uh within my work if2:43:34it's worth anything.2:43:35>> It's worth quite a bit. Mitch Horowitz2:43:37was here. Everybody, this has been a2:43:38joy. Thank you for coming in.2:43:40>> Thank you, my man. Pleasure.2:43:42>> That was Mitch Horowitz.2:43:45I did my [music] best. He's a smart guy.2:43:47There's a lot of theories and stuff I2:43:50don't really know that well. Before we2:43:52started, [music] I had my research out2:43:56and uh you know, he's an occult guy,2:44:01so you [music] would figure that'd be2:44:02easy to prep for. And then the more you2:44:04learn about him, the more you realize2:44:05he's2:44:07just wicked smart, and he's a lot more2:44:10than an occult guy. There's psychology,2:44:12parasychology, all the history. [music]2:44:15Really hard to talk to a guy with that2:44:18broad amount of knowledge. So, I joked2:44:20with him. And I said, "Why couldn't you2:44:21just be a [music] physicist? This would2:44:22be so much easier cuz it's hard to keep2:44:24up with him." But I tried. At the end, I2:44:28asked him for hope because it was kind2:44:30of a dark conversation in parts. When he2:44:33says that he has no hope for humanity,2:44:35he means it. And we hung out afterwards2:44:37for a while. We have a lot in common.2:44:39Both from New York City and moved out to2:44:40the island. We hung out at the same punk2:44:42rock bar as [music] when we were kids.2:44:43So, we bonded. You know, we sat out in2:44:46front of the studio in our black shirts.2:44:47[music] you know, two middle-aged guys2:44:49smoking cigarettes and it was perfect.2:44:51So, I felt like I got to know the guy a2:44:54little bit.2:44:56He's not [music] as dark as that.2:45:00So,2:45:02let's think [music] about his hope2:45:03statement for a second. All he gave me2:45:05was three words. The individual can. So,2:45:09let me work back to that. His resume2:45:12checks out in 10 minutes. That [music]2:45:13Reagan claim, that was crazy. Mitch says2:45:16Ronald Reagan spent his career borrowing2:45:18ideas and exact phrases from a cult2:45:21scholar Manley P. Hall. No question2:45:24about it, [music] he did it. He even2:45:26told the Count of St. Germaine story,2:45:28which I think Mitch kind of debunked,2:45:30but nobody really knows. [music] I think2:45:32it might have been the Count of St.2:45:33Germaine. The Gandhi story holds up to2:45:35he was a lonely law student in London.2:45:37He meets [music] Madame Lovatsky, the2:45:39most notorious occultist alive, and2:45:41credits the Theosophists with sending2:45:43him back to the Bagabagita. [music]2:45:45Now, that's in Gandhi's own2:45:46autobiography.2:45:48I didn't believe it either. She's in2:45:50there. And the precognition research,2:45:52those studies are real. I talked about2:45:54them before with um Eric Wargo. And he2:45:57has [music] more, if you go back and2:45:58watch that episode, he's got more and2:46:00more and more proof that somehow the2:46:03future reaches back to us. And that2:46:06story he told about the fighter like2:46:08manifesting for 30 days in [music] the2:46:10future after the fight's over. I don't2:46:13know. It It's such a compelling story.2:46:15I'm I'm going to try it. I don't know2:46:16what to [music] manifest yet, but I'm2:46:18going to try it. Well, skeptics reran2:46:21all those experiments we talked about,2:46:23Daryl, Bem, and some of those, and2:46:24mostly came up [music] empty. But that2:46:28fight isn't over because some of them2:46:30some of them reproduced the same2:46:31results. [music] So, the individual can2:46:34and Mitch told me twice he doesn't love2:46:35humanity. But I also watched him quote2:46:38William James to anyone thinking about2:46:39giving up. And then he renewed his2:46:41wedding vows [music] just yesterday with2:46:44Elvis officiating. I mean, is that a guy2:46:47who's really done with us? It's not the2:46:49guy I smoked a cigarette with. [music]2:46:51Now, his rules in his new book,2:46:55I believe every rule in that book. Um, I2:46:57[music] I wish he'd let me just post the2:46:59rules so you can see those.2:47:03That kind of wouldn't be fair. I don't2:47:04know how much the book is. It's worth2:47:07it. The book is it was very surprising.2:47:10A [music] lot of the occult books are2:47:12just kind of a dense, heavy read. This2:47:14felt more like a very grounded self-help2:47:17book, but the rules were really [music]2:47:20great and there's super simple. Um, I2:47:22mentioned a couple of on the on the2:47:24show, but it's stuff like don't be an2:47:25 learn to [music] fight, don't2:47:27tolerate bullies, pay your bills on2:47:30time, don't loan money, [music] just2:47:32give it away or say no. a lot of that2:47:35stuff, like super simple basic rules. I2:47:37believe every single one of them and I2:47:39fail at a lot of them, but I'm [music]2:47:42still trying because if you follow those2:47:44rules, you're a better person. But he2:47:46said failing is the point. Esoterica is2:47:49with a K. It's out now. [music]2:47:50Mitch's essays are free at2:47:52mitchhoritz.substack.com.2:47:54And everything I mentioned is linked2:47:55below. The Maro Institute Tech is my2:47:58gateway process episode. You can check2:48:00out the basement [music] conversation2:48:01with Tom Campbell who invented Hemisync.2:48:05And we've got an episode on2:48:07synchronicities.2:48:09Check out Eric Wargo. A lot of that was2:48:10covered here as well. We're starting to2:48:13build up quite a library of this [music]2:48:14weird cool stuff. That's why I did this.2:48:17Until next time, be safe, be kind, and2:48:20know that you are appreciated. I hear2:48:22you. No cats in the studio.2:48:27Get it. Get it.2:48:39Oh2:48:42yeah,2:48:43[music]2:48:44I played Philippia in Area 51. A secret2:48:48code inside [music] the Bible said I2:48:51[singing] would.2:48:53I love my [music] UFOs and paran2:48:57as well as music singing [music] the2:48:59like I should.2:49:02But then another conspiracy theory2:49:05becomes the [music] truth my friends2:49:08and it never ends.2:49:11No, [music and singing] it never ends.2:49:22I fear [music] the crab cat I got stuck2:49:24inside Mel's home with MK outra being2:49:27only twoear2:49:31did Stanley Cubrick [music] fake the2:49:33moon [singing] landing alone on a film2:49:36set of shadow people there [music]2:49:40the Roswell aliens just fought the2:49:43smiling man I'm told and his name was2:49:47cold and I can't leave I'm dancing with2:49:51the fish2:49:53[music] on Thursday nights with J and2:49:58all through the night.2:50:02All I ever wanted was to just hear the2:50:05truth of the world [music]2:50:08through the night.2:50:20>> [music]2:50:27>> The math man sightings and the solar2:50:30storm [music] still come to a gather the2:50:33secret city underground.2:50:35[music]2:50:37Mysterious number stations, planet2:50:39circle [singing] too, project star gave2:50:42and where the dark watchers found2:50:44[music]2:50:46in a simulation. Don't you worry though2:50:50the black night satellite over me. Oh, I2:50:55can't believe I'm dancing with the fish2:50:59[music]2:51:00on Thursday night when they you and me2:51:04all through the night.2:51:07[music]2:51:08I am supposed to hear the troops2:51:13all through the night.2:51:18On Thursday nights when they [music]2:51:20change you2:51:23all through the night.2:51:27All I ever wanted was to just hear the2:51:30truth. So we walk on repeat2:51:34[music]2:51:38to dance [music]2:51:41love to dance2:51:43to dance2:51:46to dance. Girie loves to dance.2:51:51Gertie loves to dance [music] on the2:51:53dance floor because she is a camel and2:51:56camels love to dance when the feeling is2:52:00right on the way in time. [music] Good2:52:04love dance. Good love.2:52:15[bell]
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