Transcript of Chloé Zhao, Ryan Coogler, James Cameron, Kathryn Bigelow & More at the THR Director Roundtable
The Hollywood Reporter
0:00Don't we all want to go to each other's0:01sets and just [laughter]0:04>> and just be very small?0:06>> I'm I'm loving everything I'm hearing.0:07I'm like I'm like man [laughter]0:16[music]0:22[music]0:32>> [music]0:37[music]0:42[music]0:47>> Hi everyone and thank you for joining us0:48for the Hollywood Reporters Director0:50Round Table. I'm Scott Fineberg and I'm0:52so thrilled and honored to be joined by0:54six outstanding filmmakers behind 20250:57masterpieces. And I'd love to ask if you1:00had not become a filmmaker, what would1:01you be doing today? That's an easy one1:03for me because I had to decide between1:05exploration and science on the one hand1:06and film making on the other hand. And1:08I've made that decision several times1:10and gone back and forth. Yes. I took1:11eight years off from Hollywood to do uh1:14seven deep ocean expeditions.1:15>> Katherine, you were at art school,1:16right?1:17>> Yeah. Be painting.1:19>> Ryan, how about you? You were an1:20athlete.1:20>> I was, but I don't think I was good1:22enough to still be doing it. [laughter]1:24So, I'm actually I'm actually struggling1:25right now. Um I probably have a coffee1:27shop, [laughter] I think. Yeah, I got1:30pretty good at making at making uh1:31espresso.1:33>> [laughter]1:34>> Yorgos, I know you you've had a1:36photography exhibition recently. Is that1:37something that could have been a path1:39for you?1:39>> I guess it just sounds too close to1:43[laughter] what I'm doing now. So, I was1:45thinking like a baker or something.1:47>> Yeah, you guys could have shops.1:49>> Yeah, I could be I could be provide you1:51with all you know like pastries. I I1:53would like that very much.1:55>> Yeah.1:55>> Yeah.1:55>> How about you, Chloe?1:57>> Private detective.1:58>> And you were serious about that, right?2:00>> Yeah.2:01>> Mhm. And then I realized it's actually2:02quite dangerous and I don't know but2:04make believe is better.2:05>> That's good. And and Yoki2:07>> I don't know how to do anything else.2:08I'm just grateful they let me. But I2:10think No, I don't think skating but like2:12Ryan we were talking about it. I don't I2:14I used to be a pretty good skater. I'm2:15too old now. But I think something with2:17people I don't have the academic skills2:18probably but like to be a psychologist2:20or help people or something. I don't2:21know.2:22>> So for each of you if you had to point2:24to one film above all others which was2:27it kind of nudged you down this this2:29road? I would say the Wild Bunch. It's2:32so epic and iconic and at least it2:35certainly impressed me. I think I saw2:37Wild Bunch on a double bill with Main2:39Streets2:40>> and that was just transformative.2:42>> Well, I grew up in Beijing and we didn't2:44have Hollywood movies since you're here.2:47Terminator is the first film I've ever2:49seen. They would let one Hollywood film2:51in per week on a Sunday. And uh I think2:55that was the first time I go, "Holy2:57[ __ ] [laughter]2:59jump for you. I have a couple.3:00>> It's the same answer. It's 2001, a space3:03odyssey, but really not just because my3:04mind was blown by the cinema of it and I3:07became fascinated by Kubric and his3:09whole methodology, but but uh I want to3:12know how they did it. And and to me that3:14was the leap. It's like then I started3:16building models and using my dad's Super3:18Eight camera to make space shots. And3:20once you're kind of down that path, it3:22just gathers momentum, you know,3:24>> rolling downhill. My father did sound3:27work. He's a sound designer on an3:30animation film called Pitchcliffe Grand3:32Prix, which I'm sure none of you have3:33seen, but we'll try to send it to you.3:35No, but it was made in the in the late3:37'7s when I was a kid.3:38>> And I went there and saw these grown-ups3:40play with animation of dolls, you know,3:43and and it really and also seeing the3:45result of that and being kind of proud3:46that my dad was a part of it. I think3:48that really affected me.3:49>> Ryan, I didn't know I was going to make3:51movies when I when I saw it. was3:52probably Malcolm X and my dad took me3:55and I remember just being kind of3:56overwhelmed by all of it. So that was3:58probably where it absolutely started4:01>> you know remembering back what was like4:04cinema for me when I was growing up was4:06like you know Spielberg films like4:08Indiana Jones and Jaws and you know4:11those films were like an out ofthe-world4:13experience for me uh when I was growing4:16up. diving into these specific projects.4:18Katherine, I'd love to start with you4:20and I think just to kind of set up the4:23origin story if we can. I think it was4:26exactly 50 years ago that you made a4:28short film called Psychological4:31Operations in Support of Unconventional4:33Warfare. Years later in 2002 was K19:4:36The Widowmaker about a nuclear sub that4:38began to melt down. And now on the heels4:40of the Hurt Locker and Zero Dark 30, we4:43have A House of Dynamite about America's4:45response to a nuclear attack. What is at4:47the root of your interest in this4:50subject matter and how did it lead to4:52this particular film at this particular4:53moment? I'm curious about the4:56military-industrial complex and foreign4:58policy and how we are sort of at the5:01mercy of it and it's always been5:05intriguing to me, you know, trying to5:07understand it, trying to unpack it,5:09trying to decipher it and also how we're5:12sort of made vulnerable by it. And in5:14the case of this current one, an5:16interest obviously in the prospect of5:19nuclear war and how sort of it's become5:23normalized.5:24>> I mean, I grew up at a time when we had5:26to we were in the duck and cover era. We5:29had to hide under our desk in case of an5:30atomic blast. And now it feels like the5:34spectre of it has kind of returned with5:37a lot of various saber rattling around5:39the world. And here we are. And I think5:42it's a worthy conversation. Let's put it5:44that way.5:44>> Absolutely.5:45>> And I know that is something that was on5:48your mind from a young age too, Jim. The5:50fresh, right?5:51>> Sure. I bought a book uh, you know,5:53Ghosts of Hiroshima, which which I want5:55to make at some point. And and I share5:57Katherine's, you know, generational5:59perspective on it, you know, being a kid6:01in the 60s was to have the Cold War be6:04real for you,6:06>> you know, right? and and realize that6:08you're powerless, that other people are6:11are in command of this thing. And I6:13think the big takeaway from your movie6:14should be that it boils down to one guy.6:17In the United States, the president is6:18the only person who has the power to6:20launch a retaliatory strike or to even6:23launch an offensive strike. And people6:24need to think about that when they vote6:26next time.6:27>> I want to talk about Avatar now because6:29preassociating a connection here.6:31Vicarious experience is something that I6:34think was at the center of a film that6:36Jim you co-wrote and produced and6:38Katherine directed 30 years ago. That6:40was strange days film in which6:42technology makes that vicarious6:44experience possible. And around that6:45same time I believe you're thinking for6:47the first time about Avatar where of6:49course technology makes it possible for6:51a disabled human to6:53>> it was almost the opposite. It was6:54collecting sensory data from another6:57person and then playing it back. And6:59then this was, you know, your7:00consciousness being projected into into7:02another body and acting through that7:04body. And we we were developing those7:06actually at the same time. It was in7:08>> 90 Well, I think we were doing it in 93.7:11>> 93.7:12>> 93. Yeah. Avatar came a little later. I7:14wrote that in '95.7:15>> What was the initial impetus for Avatar7:17and and the idea that you would spend7:19here? We are more than three decades7:21later leading up to this latest7:23installment which is looking at the7:24aftermath of the familial loss that um7:27happens in in the way of water. Uh just7:29what set you on this path?7:31>> Well, the technology or the the science7:33fiction idea of the technology that you7:35could project your mind into, you know,7:36an alien body was more of a means to an7:39end to get you into a world and to to7:41place a character into a world and into7:43a culture. So it was looking at7:44indigenous culture through the lens of7:46science fiction and the way that their7:49you know values might be very different7:51and you know the the actually you know7:54Avatar sort of gets human human a human7:56audience to vote against themselves bet7:58against themselves by the end of the8:00movie but I I don't think it's that8:02simple. I think it's the aspirational8:04value of the Na'vi is we want to go back8:07to that version of ourselves that was8:10connected with nature and that still8:12cared about these things and we all8:14carry around this guilt that we've moved8:15away from that in our8:17>> urbanized technological society and I8:19think that's why that film resonated. I8:21think that's why the second film8:22resonated and you know we'll see what8:24happens next.8:25>> You never know till you put it out8:26[laughter] there what's going to happen.8:28Well, Ryan, you have uh made films of8:31all sorts and sizes, uh from lowbudget8:34indies to giant studio films, and I8:36don't think you've ever quite blended8:37genres as much as you have in centers. I8:40wonder where the inspiration for it came8:42from. I think you've said that you don't8:44make films unless there's a personal8:45connection.8:46>> Yeah. For me, it all starts with my8:48uncle, my uncle James Evansson, who was8:51for a long time like the eldest male8:54family member I had. And he was from8:56Mississippi, moved to Oakland when he8:58was like 20 years old. And I was born9:00and raised in Oakland. That's that's all9:02I ever I ever knew for for a long time.9:04And I used to just love spending time9:06with him at his house. Um, hanging out.9:08If he if he had enough whiskey, he'll9:10tell me a story about Mississippi.9:12>> Um, but the blues was always on around9:14him. And and for me the blues music was9:16his. It didn't belong to me. You know,9:17it was kind of music for my for my9:19uncle, music for older people. And and9:20and I started making movies, moved away9:23from home, and in 2015, he got he got9:25very sick. And um you know, I wanted to9:28be there and be around him, but I was in9:29Philadelphia making Creed and and LA9:31finishing it up. And he was such a9:33hardworking guy. He would always call me9:34on the phone, don't worry about me, man.9:35Handle your business. He ended up9:36passing away while I was in9:38post-production. And I wasn't there. I9:39had a lot of guilt around it. Um, but9:41but what I would do when I think about9:43him is I'll put on those old those old9:45songs that that he would that he would9:47have uh playing when we hung out. And I9:49just got obsessed with it, you know, and9:51started to listen to it in a with a9:52different ear. Um, and start to study9:55it, you know, uh, and that's kind of9:57where the, you know, where the idea came9:58from. And one day I was listening to one9:59of his old songs, a song called Wang10:01Dang Doodle. It just hit me like a10:02lightning bolt, like, "Oh, this is a10:04this could be a movie."10:05>> And I love genre cinema, too. So So, you10:08know, nobody knew that about me. So, I10:09thought it would be fun to to make10:11something a little more personal, a10:12little more a little more special and10:14pull from some of my favorite10:15influences. And, you know, that's that's10:16that's how how we got the movie.10:18>> That's great.10:18>> Uh, Yardos Beona is a reimagining, I10:22guess, is a word we could use for a 200310:25Korean film, Save the Green Planet, that10:27also uh somehow speaks maybe even more10:30to our current moment, 20 plus years10:31later. It seems like it came together10:34faster than some of your other projects10:35have. Is that true? And and where did it10:37start? Yeah, because I I guess because I10:40wasn't involved from the beginning,10:41that's why for me it was faster, but10:43Will Tracy who wrote the script started10:45working with Lars Newton and Dary Aster10:48developing the script and it came to me10:52at one point they thought that I'd be10:53interested in it and obviously they were10:56right. Yeah, it was the first film that10:58I had haven't developed myself for many11:01years and I read the script and I you11:03know it was the first time that I read a11:05script and I feel like it's almost ready11:08to to make because of the reasons you11:11mentioned but it was also like extremely11:13funny and complex and yeah relevant and11:17uh different I think in a way to the11:19stuff that I've done but it made11:21absolute sense to me why they they would11:23think of me for this film uh And it was11:27a quick process. I I worked with Will a11:29little bit on the script just to make it11:31more my own and bring in my own11:33sensibilities, but it was yeah like a11:36couple of passes on the script with Will11:38and then, you know, off we went.11:40>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Chloe, you have said11:42that even after uh Steven Spielberg and11:44Sam Mendy's, two major filmmakers in11:47their own right, even after they11:48approached you about directing Hamnet,11:49even after that you hesitated quite a11:51bit about saying yes to directing this.11:54What were your reasons for having pause11:57and what got you to reconsider?11:59>> When they told me the log line, it's12:01about uh focusing a mother losing a12:04child. Just hearing that was quite12:07triggering because um the character of a12:10mother did not exist in my films before12:13>> because like many I carry a quite deep12:16uh mother wound12:18>> and uh I think it's I think in your film12:21>> you know your avatar explores that in a12:23in a in a universal way but it is the12:26greatest wound a person can carry and12:29probably the hardest one to to heal. And12:32so the idea of making a film about that12:34and then be swimming in that river, I12:36was like, I don't think so. But I did go12:38through a midlife crisis for four years12:40and realized that if you don't deal with12:43it, it's going to come get you. So I12:45thought maybe now is the time.12:46>> Wow. Okay.12:48>> Was it cathartic for you to make the12:50film?12:50>> Yes. Yes. Because12:52just like in in sentimental value as12:55well, I knew I could hold on to well12:58Shakespeare because I know that person13:00who is afraid out of that and escape13:02into a fantasy world. I I can when when13:05in doubt, I can run into his world and13:07knowing that the power of art and13:10storytelling is going to carry me13:12through13:13>> this process the way it had carried him13:16through his experience. So I thought,13:18let's give it a go.13:20>> Yeah. barely made it13:22>> out of it, but here I am.13:24>> Thank you for making that decision.13:26>> Yes. Yes. And Yoke, Sentimental Value,13:29uh, which like so many of your films was13:31shot in the area around Oslo, right? Uh,13:33where I believe you also in Oslo where13:35you also live. Uh,13:37>> centers on a family of artists. There's13:39intergenerational13:40kind of hurt and resentments. Obviously13:42a very specific story, but on the other13:44hand, I wanted to ask you, I can't help13:47but notice you come from a family of13:49filmmakers. Your grandfather directed13:51films that were in can in 1955 and 1960.13:54Your father was, as you mentioned, a13:56sound designer on films. Your mother, I13:58know, was a director at one point. You14:00grew up, you've said, on film sets. Was14:02your family a jumping off point for this14:04or just coincidental? My grandfather,14:07Eric Lurin, um was in the resistance14:10during the Second World War. He and he14:12got captured during the the Nazi14:14occupation of Norway. And um he survived14:18after imprisonment through making jazz14:20music14:21>> and he made his first film kind of in an14:23environment where in Norway at the time14:25no one made movies. So he made a film14:27that got to can in 1960 is his first14:29time and and his only time to go there.14:32And it was a year where you know you had14:33Vincent Minnelli and you had Burman and14:35Antonio everyone and my grandfather came14:38and they said you made a new wave film14:40and he said I call it jazz movie you14:42know he was a jazz musician so in my14:44family that meant a lot but there wasn't14:45any infrastructure to really support him14:48so he only made one more feature film in14:50his life but so I think I I um I thought14:52a lot about him and I also observed as a14:55child he passed away when I was 9 years14:58old but I obser observed someone's I15:00think trying to survive through the15:02creative act and and now that I'm15:04suddenly the the father of two young15:06girls, I think this film also comes out15:08of that like conversation I'm having15:10with Eskil Faulk, my coowriter who I15:12always write with about what where are15:14we in life and what does this mean? This15:15thing we do and I'm still struggling to15:17understand why the hell we do what we15:19do. But but that's I try to put that15:21into the movie.15:22>> That's therapy.15:22>> Maybe it is.15:23>> We work out our stuff.15:24>> Yeah.15:25>> Right. sometimes in a more abstract or15:27removed way, sometimes in a very direct15:29way, but we're all working out our15:31stuff.15:31>> There are some of you, you know, you're15:33people are studying your movies in15:35universities. There are critics, people15:36are writing books about you guys. They15:38have their own theories, but I wonder in15:40your in your way. They're always wrong.15:43Well, that's why here's our chance to15:44set the record straight. Do you guys see15:47a connective thread that runs through15:49all or at least most of your films? And15:51is there any explanation for that, if15:53there is one? All mine are love stories,15:56>> right?15:56>> Of one form or another,15:58>> right? Either a romantic girl meets boy16:00or,16:02you know, a marriage that's breaking up16:04or a woman creates a a relationship in16:08in moments with a little girl that she16:10feels protective of. I mean, they're all16:11love stories some way. So, they're all16:14kind of sappy. What would be if you were16:16to in front of all of us just a small16:18group and our viewers why [laughter]16:21everyone why a little therapy right now16:25you why do you think that might be that16:27you that you return to love stories16:30>> I think it's in you know people think of16:31me as a very technical filmmaker and I16:34can do that you know I love to do that16:35but for me it's all about the heart it's16:38all about connecting you know the16:39storytelling first rule of storytelling16:41is you connect with your audience and16:43So, I guess I I go to kind of what the16:46universal experience of humanity is. We16:49all want to be seen. We want to be16:50loved. We want to feel safe in a16:53relationship,16:54>> you know, all of those things. Now, I16:56can quantify that now, but when I16:58started out, I didn't I I couldn't have17:00quantified it. I was really just17:02reacting to all my influences, the17:04things I thought were cool.17:05>> Yeah.17:05>> Yeah.17:06>> You know, I just wanted to do cool stuff17:07in my movies, like the cool stuff I saw17:09in other movies. That's that was my film17:11school was the drive-in movie theaters17:13in Orange County,17:14>> right?17:14>> You know, I just learned how to answer17:15the questions better as I went along.17:17[laughter]17:18>> But isn't that interesting though, just17:19what you're describing, I can also feel17:21that you we are all probably quite17:23obsessed with the format of cinema,17:25right? Like movies, right?17:27>> You found the form and then you revealed17:29yourself through it. And I feel I don't17:31know how I would love to hear how the17:33rest of you feel about that, but I also17:34started out just thinking I was making a17:36movie to be allowed to make a movie. And17:38then it turns out slowly that wow people17:41are talking back to me about stuff that17:42I care about. And and that's a good17:44thing I think at the end of the day even17:45though we can be shy about it.17:47>> But I think that revelation is kind of17:49subconscious.17:50>> You know, you can't do it intentionally.17:52It's going to happen no matter what. I17:54mean, it's it's like a roar shock.17:56>> I think you throw yourself into a place17:58that feels dangerous and then you learn18:00to to swim in that in that pool. You18:02throw yourself into the deep end and18:04then you find out something about18:05yourself,18:05>> right? You know, if you go in with such18:07a road map, like everybody extolled the18:09virtues of Hitchcock with this perfectly18:11roadmapped film and everything, it's18:14like that doesn't interest me. I want to18:15go where I don't know what to do,18:18>> you know,18:18>> and I don't feel safe.18:19>> Yeah, exactly. Do you feel that way,18:21guys? I mean, you're always doing crazy18:23[ __ ] [laughter]18:25>> You do you do stuff that would never18:26occur to me in a million years,18:28[laughter]18:28but they're love stories, basically.18:31Yeah,18:32>> I guess like Kim said, like I never18:34thought I would make a film in Greece. I18:36just just thought I'll make commercials,18:38earn a living and and at some point it18:40dawned on me like especially when I18:43became more technically proficient18:45through making all these commercials, I18:47go like why don't we just grab a camera18:50and just go, we don't need lights, we18:52don't need makeup, we don't need18:53anything. Just get three actors, go18:56somewhere with five people and just make18:58a film. That's how I made my first film19:00and it's and it was a a reaction and it19:04was more about form. It was a reaction19:06to the polished world that I knew. It19:09was in a way form and it was a little19:11bit of a love story and a detective19:13story. And then you know when I realized19:16we we can just make films like that I I19:18went on to make my second film uh dog19:21tooth which is was more more about19:24thinking more about what interests me in19:27exploring in terms of human nature and19:30societal structures and human behavior19:33and coming from Greece which is a kind19:36of Mediterranean type of19:39uh family structure that was something19:42that was interesting. to me and see how19:45I can take that to extremes and expose19:49things about that structure and but yeah19:53it did start out as like you said like I19:56I can just make a film19:57>> take a 16 millimeter camera go somewhere20:00make a film20:01>> well for a number of you I know it's20:02also place is something that you that20:05runs through maybe not everyone but many20:07of your films I mean obviously uh Yoke20:10that's that's Oslo for you uh Ryan and20:13Oakland and Chloe. Interestingly enough,20:16for someone who was born in China, it20:18seems like the American West for many of20:21them was something that you were drawn20:22to. So, I guess coming from where you20:24do, would you have ever is there any20:26rhyme or reason for how you've wound up20:28where you've gone?20:29>> You know, every northern Chinese person20:32has some Mongolian blood20:35because you know they stuff happened.20:37>> So, you come from a line of conquerors.20:40>> Half of me. The other half is [laughter]20:42the conquered um like conquered many20:45times.20:46>> No conflict there.20:47>> No conflict there. Just the inner civil20:49war. I remember whenever I hear20:51Mongolian music growing up, I cry,20:55>> you know. So I would be yearning for the20:57the planes of Mongolia when I was in20:59Beijing and I was yearning for the21:01planes when I was in New York.21:03>> There's a throughine to your previous21:06question. It's might be a bit of downer,21:08but I think it's fear of death. You know21:11I'm terrified of death. I did not grow21:13up in an environment where there is21:16religion or there is a way of looking at21:20it as natural part of um the human21:23experience but more as something taboo21:26and bad and something we have to fix. So21:29I something to be ashamed of and somehow21:32it's weakness and knowing being deeply21:34sensitive and knowing that is I'm not21:37really living my life if I'm so afraid21:39to die. And so to be drawn to nature21:43especially the nature that has now been21:46uh tamed and controlled and once you21:48have no choice but to be part of it once21:51you're forced to vibrate as part of21:54nature you actually become one21:56>> with it. And then the illusion of21:59separation dissolves and then you're22:02fearless and then you're no longer22:04afraid to die and then you can live and22:06love with your hearts open. So I think22:08the the drawn towards that landscape is22:11for that reason.22:12>> Can I ask you a quick question because I22:14feel22:14>> I'm scared.22:15>> No no it's beautiful. Thank you for22:16sharing that. That that's really22:18relevant and it makes sense in your in22:20in your in your movies and I've seen22:23something that occurs in your early22:25films is very often the sole character22:27up against the sky22:29>> but in the new one they're engulfed by22:32trees and and there's there's a22:34different type of n so are you22:35developing into22:37>> less scared of the open sky and22:39>> death I think so I think the midlife22:42crisis really helped that in my 30s is22:44about that horizontal go as far wide as22:47possible like the pioneers. But in my22:4940s is about containing myself in a very22:53uh strong structures and stillness and22:56not running away from myself. So I have22:58nowhere else to go but descent into23:00myself. the next uh chapter here if we23:03can I like like to talk about how you23:05all work with actors and I want to23:08establish also out of the gate here23:10several of you obviously made your 202523:12films with repeat collaborators Ryan23:16Michael B Jordan has been in at the23:19center of every one of your films and23:21it's just it's exciting to see you guys23:23keep coming back together and bringing23:25out the best in each other and I wonder23:26how did you first begin working together23:28find each other and and why do you think23:30it is such Uh uh great uh work really.23:33>> Yeah. Yeah. So, so it it was like really23:36utilitarian, man. Like like I needed23:38somebody to play this real guy who23:41existed who was murdered a few years23:42before we started filming and I was23:44really into like the fidelity of it, you23:46know what I mean? Cuz this young man was23:47executed on camera, you know, so people23:49knew what he looked like where I was23:50from. And I was that was really the only23:52place I figured it would play was in23:53Oakland, you know? And uh I come from a23:55place that's real. We got a chip on our23:57shoulder, you know. It's like a23:59>> It's like a um It's like a Brooklyn to24:01San Francisco, but it's also like a24:02little sibling to LA, you know what I24:04mean? For the California situation.24:06>> So, like authenticity means everything24:07to us. And if I cast somebody who didn't24:09look like Oscar Gr, I was dead, you24:10know, and I was dead in the water, you24:12know? So,24:12>> so I kind of narrowed it down and Mike24:14was one of the guys and I started to24:17look at his his his work with a critical24:19eye and it was just obvious to me that24:21this dude was like a movie star. you24:22know, he was in movies kind of he'll be24:24like the third lead or he's in a TV show24:26kind of in a supporting role, but he24:28would find a way to be the the person24:29that people remembered, you know, no24:30matter where he was at. And then I wrote24:32the screenplay, went to Sundance uh24:34screenwriters lab where I met24:37>> and Yoken was our our adviser. So I met24:38this [clears throat] met this genius um24:41and he was a confused kid and you24:42[laughter] guys are so good. So you24:44know, how could I be an adviser?24:45>> No, that was an play. It was like24:48everybody was like24:50>> I remember24:50>> and like and like you know ran to him24:51for advice24:52>> and my movie was set over the course of24:5424 hours like like his movie was like so24:56I was I was soaking up all the all the24:58advice he gave out and and yeah like I I25:00sat with him we were from 3,000 miles25:03away you know roughly the same age about25:04a year older than Mike and and and we25:06just clicked you know and then we got on25:08set and he was he was masterful you know25:11you know got a lot of god-given talent25:12and God made him look how he looks you25:14know what I'm saying he can't no control25:15over that he had the lot there but he25:16[clears throat] just he just he just25:17works and and and is very selfless. We25:20make a great set, you know what I mean?25:22Everybody's going to be respected. He25:23knows everybody's name from the PA to25:25the producer. You know, he's just how he25:27was raised. You know, when you find25:28somebody and it works like that, you25:30don't you don't want to let it go. And25:31the story I never told anybody for how25:32he got linked up on Creed. It was while25:35we were we were doing chemistry reads25:37for Fruitville and I got a call to go25:39meet with Stallone and pitch him and and25:42you know Stallone's agent was like, "Hey25:43yo, you got to be here." I'm like, "Yo,25:44I'm in I'm in I'm in auditions for for25:46this movie." He's like, "What's that25:47movie?" Hey man, you got to be here or25:48it ain't going to happen. So I had to25:49explain to Mike that I had to leave the25:51auditions, you know, and I needed him to25:52hold it down while I left. He's like,25:54yo, where are you going? I'm like, I'm25:55going to go I might make a Rocky movie.25:57And he's like, yo, if you put me in the25:58movie, you can go, you know. [laughter]26:00So, so I didn't think it was going to26:02happen. We shook hands right there. All26:03right, brother. You can play in this26:04movie if it goes, you know. But that's26:05how that's how it happened for me.26:06>> That's amazing.26:08[laughter]26:09>> Doors only open for a split second and26:11he knew to go through it.26:13>> Yeah, exactly.26:14>> And Yorgos, you and Emma, how do you26:16explain that? We just met and it was26:18obvious from the beginning that you know26:20we we got along and we worked together26:23on the favor and that was a great26:25experience. From then on, we just kept26:27building on that and there was a lot of26:29trust between us and we became, you26:32know, very close friends and she's26:34become a producer in the films because26:36it was just a natural thing like I26:39wanted to run everything by her and I26:41trust her sensibilities and taste and26:43thoughts about, you know, the entirety26:45of the the film and the production. So26:48it just became a natural thing and you26:50know we we're creating like a a bigger26:52group around us that involves crew as26:54well that comes back and other actors26:57that also you know we keep working with26:59and it just becomes like a like a27:01theater troop like traveling around27:03making films27:05>> in various places.27:06>> And do you Jim and Yokim is it something27:08that you just know the minute you start27:11working with Sigourney or Ranata? I27:13mean, Ranata literally it was one line27:16in Oslo and then you write the next27:19movie for27:20>> Yeah. Um, she was also August 31st. And27:24because I'm obsessed with light and we27:26were waiting for the transitional light27:28every morning for 8 days and then shot27:30something else for the rest of the day.27:32She was she was actually on set for nine27:33days or something alto together for that27:35one line.27:36>> And I felt so safe around her. You I27:37could give her a task. She was kind of a27:39character that was hanging out with the27:41main character throughout the night. and27:42I gave her task and bicycling around or27:45hanging out at the party and and I would27:46look at the rushes coming back and27:48everything she does is interesting. She27:50makes a great choice. I didn't really27:51direct her much but she was just a human27:54being living in the background there and27:56then I thought she'll be a great star.27:58>> And then she got all these roles in27:59theater but no one cast her for lead28:01parts in movies. So I wrote her worst28:04person in the world and that's it. And28:06I'm just grateful she wanted to continue28:07to work. Yeah,28:08>> I mean it's not just we'll say in in the28:10connecting from uh for for many years up28:14to Avatar movies at Sigourney, but28:16there's obviously years with a number of28:19times Arnold Lance Hendrickson and then28:22the principles in Avatar now worked with28:24three times.28:25>> Uh I was terrified of Sigourney before I28:27met her. She was Ripley, you know,28:29[laughter] and I had written this part.28:31I just prayed that she liked the script28:33which she did. But you know I I think28:35it's an issue of trust and respect28:38>> birectional and you want to you want to28:41be trusted by the actor. You want to be28:42respected by the actor but it's earned28:45you know and and uh I trust and respect28:49the actors that that I love to work with28:52now. I mean when Avatar went out and28:54became this huge thing it was like well28:56do I really want to go back into that28:58and have that hang over my head you know29:01indefinitely? And I thought, well, yeah,29:03but they're great people.29:04>> Yeah,29:05>> they're really lovely people and they're29:07they're so29:09>> uh vivid, you know, just in what they're29:11able to create and what Zoe can do, what29:13Sam can do. And Sigourney, I brought her29:15back from the dead. I I wrote [laughter]29:17a whole other character for her, you29:19know, and it it it has a troop kind of29:23kind of feeling to it. Very much like29:25almost like an old radio theater troop.29:27And the thing that's lovely about29:30performance capture is people can play29:32other characters. Like if Zoe got bored29:35on the first film, she'd just play29:36somebody else [clears throat] for a29:38scene. Wow.29:39>> You know. Oh, that's brilliant. And29:41that's great.29:41>> Yeah. And Kate did that, too. She didn't29:43have any any lines or a moment in a29:45scene. She'd just play somebody else.29:47[laughter]29:48>> So, I think Kate that's Kate's got about29:51three characters and I think Zoe's got29:53three or four.29:54>> [laughter]29:54>> Wow. Wow.29:55>> But we we also have this actual troop29:58where we call them the troop29:59>> and they're I call them the Swiss Army30:01knife jack of all trades kind of actors30:03cuz they might play an old man one day30:06or a boy the next day, you know, male30:09warrior the next day and they can do30:12anything, you know, and they're just30:13constantly changing hats, changing30:15characters. And it's very egalitarian30:17because, you know, when you're on a30:18movie with a big movie star, everybody30:21knows when it's time for Tom Cruz's30:23closeup and the world kind of stops30:25while everything gets ready. But in30:27performance capture, we're just30:28capturing the the authenticity of the30:30moment between human beings and we30:32figure out all the coverage later.30:34That's all that's all later. There's30:37never a close there's no closeup, baby.30:39You know, so everybody's kind of equal30:41>> with your performance capture. you can30:44subsequently change the entire angle of30:47the shot or the type of shot and30:49everything.30:49>> And we're not doing shots, we're doing30:51we're doing performance.30:52>> Yeah.30:52>> And so it exists. It's more like theater30:54rehearsal almost. There's no audience30:56there. It's it feels like rehearsal. You30:58can stop, you can start, you can change,31:00you can move around, but you're you're31:03focusing in on that.31:05>> It's the thing we do. We try to find the31:07authenticity of the scene. I actually31:09use rehearsals to train actors [snorts]31:11to accept my gaze because it, you know,31:13if you sit with your friends and you31:15stare at them and feel them all the31:16time, they think you're crazy.31:18>> So, I kind of find this kind of31:20acceptance and sometimes I I step back31:22or I don't want to be in the way, but31:24that they see that I have a it sounds31:25cheesy, but a loving gaze. I cast them31:27because I dig them. I really want them31:29to do well and support them and then I31:31can be close and I'm allowed to be31:32there. So, that's what rehearsals.31:34>> It's a fine line, isn't it?31:35>> It's super. And sometimes it's almost31:37like you see that they're dealing with31:38shame and you kind of pull back a little31:40bit or something if that's a part of the31:41scene.31:42>> So they all need something different31:45though. That's the crazy part of it. And31:47>> I think, you know, we all instinctively31:50key in to what the actor needs in the in31:52the moment. That's a presence or if31:54that's, you know, get the hell out of31:56the way.31:56>> Absolutely.31:57>> Well, I I find Chloe, you use methods32:01that are not ones that I've heard often32:03else.32:03>> I the I'm the weird one. Well, I don't32:05think it's I mean, but I'd love to hear32:07how you how you arrived at some of these32:09decisions, particularly uh at Hamnet.32:11Like, there's a scene where Jesse32:13Buckley's32:14>> lying by a tree with the baby that I32:16believe she would have just given birth32:17to, and you're essentially like cuddled32:20up next to her, I guess, directing her32:22from that position. So, just uh building32:25a different sort of close relationship32:27with your actors than than many others32:29would. Just how did you arrive at some32:30of those techniques? I like the32:32performance troop um the circus uh32:35analogy but so so so stand by for that32:38one because it is going to be weird but32:40I I think but that's where we come from32:42you know every now nowadays like there's32:44all these rules and and we have to32:46follow which is understandable and but32:49at the same time um it's a very fine32:52line what we're going through in in our32:55own lives and and then what's happening32:57as we do as performers storytellers so32:59it's messy and um and And I and it's33:01embodied and so I went in digging in33:05those four years of midlife crisis of33:07somatic expressions and embodied33:10creativity. And so to get out of my head33:14and go into the subconscious and so33:17there were a couple of modalities33:20ancient modality old modalities that I33:22pulled out of um mystery schools and and33:26union psychology and to to experiment in33:29Hamnet. He know was a big experiment to33:31work from that place. So there's dream33:33work working with dreams and it is very33:36fun the union uh lineage and we will33:38have that on set and sometimes we would33:40put 300 extras33:43under um into a collective dream right33:46before we we we call action and then33:49there is tantric workshops like which is33:53come to the Hindu tradition and it's33:55working with energies and it's working33:56with polarities. So, we will uh get Po34:00and Jesse in a polarity workshop to see34:02how much they can get into their34:05gendered polarity to the extreme and34:07then and then let them clash into each34:10other. So, there's just different kinds34:12of somatic uh exercises. So I don't34:14rehearse the scenes but I try to get34:17them into this kind of um um into their34:21bodies and have them comfortable with34:22each other and to to know here are the34:25containers where we can go and once the34:28containers are really strong then the34:30water can go very deep. Um but that34:32container is only strong and safe if if34:35it's embodied.34:36>> Are you saying the container of the34:37character itself or the container that34:39they're acting within?34:40>> I think both. So once they are in their34:42bodies and they have experienced each34:45other in the most polarized way34:49>> then it's a seed planted including let's34:51say you get a Shakespeare family34:52including the children doing a dream34:54work together so they're kind of dropped34:56into their subconscious and then you34:58guide them into a collective dream it35:01might not be useful in the moment but I35:03trust that when seed is planted in the35:05subconscious and a chance to tap into35:08the collective unconscious then35:10something bigger is going to be making35:12this film through us alongside with35:15decisions we make consciously but35:17something bigger is going to come35:18through in moments usually when we need35:21the most.35:22>> Do you throw something in during the35:24scene or do you try to stay external to35:26that container35:27>> once the scene begins? We want to be as35:30present as possible. I mean you as35:32director are you saying take that line35:34again or do this or do that during the35:36scene or are you letting that sort of35:39alternate reality that you've created35:40with them run its course35:42>> usually run its course unless unless35:45there's a line there's a moment I knew I35:47have to feed that line it came out of me35:49I try to do these exercises myself to35:52make sure my decisions are coming from35:54the body not from the mind and if it's35:56truly from the body then I will shout it35:58out35:59>> don't we all want to go to each other36:01sets [laughter]36:04>> and just be very small.36:06>> I'm loving everything I'm hearing. I'm36:08like I'm like man. [laughter]36:10>> So, how transferable are these uh36:14approaches that we've been talking about36:16between sizes and scales? Do you feel as36:20a filmmaker a huge difference when36:22you're going in terms of what you are36:25having to do on a day-to-day basis when36:27you go from that small small scale to36:30you know Marvel36:31>> the biggest one is second units like36:33that's the that was a big one when I'm36:35like they had to explain to me what it36:37was you know like like hey it's going to36:38be another unit you know I'm like wait36:40what [laughter]36:42it's going to be a director and it's36:43like I'm like wait excuse me like oh36:44yeah they don't record sound and I'm36:46like they don't have sound like36:48[laughter] it was how much, you know,36:49like like the size of these productions.36:51So, I told him I was I was like I was36:53like, "Y'all not doing this second unit.36:54I don't I don't understand. I'm not36:56doing it." And I'm like, "You know what?36:58They they say um they say, "Well, what's37:00your favorite favorite action movies?"37:02>> So, I said, "You know what? Terminator37:042, right?" I said, "I can terminate a37:06second unit, then I'll do it." And they37:07come back and say, they come back.37:09[laughter]37:10>> I'm like, and they came back and they37:12printed out the the the [laughter]37:15>> bro and like [ __ ] you know? So, so but37:18it but it was great man. Like I met I37:20met my AD on centers was my second unit37:24AD and I learned a lot from those folks37:26that work on those units man. And but37:28that37:28>> that was the big one you know like like37:30when just the concept of37:32>> like a whole another you know whole37:33another crew in Panther 2. We had your37:36our underwater unit37:37>> like walked off of way of water like37:39like on us. So it was all these37:41methodologies at that time. It was like,37:42"Hey, we do a breathe up right before we37:44got a we got a a screen here and and37:47then you know, you know, and I had to37:48learn how to get down at the bottom of37:49the tank."37:50>> You had Kirk Croc doing the breathe up37:52with the actor.37:54>> Oh, bro. I had I had they gave me the37:55whole routine.37:57>> And I'm like I'm like, "Man, what else37:58did James do?" He's like, "Man, the37:59whole set's vegan." I was like, "Damn, I38:00can't do that." [laughter]38:04And uh [laughter] Chloe, would you add38:07your experience of going from uh The Art38:09House to Marvel? Uh just any what was38:11you were you surprised by anything?38:13>> I actually didn't feel the difference38:16very much. I think because when you make38:19film with $5 million in the desert with38:2227 people without an ID, you know, you38:25you do everything yourself is extremely38:28stressful. And I and and then so I38:30marvel when we did eternals it was like38:33wow people are doing stuff for me and38:36the things are taken care of and and38:38then you ask for something is there38:39people show up to work it's great and38:42but also what happened what my38:45experience was that that 27 people38:47stayed the same38:48>> I was going to say there's an intimacy38:50around the camera that doesn't change38:53beyond that there may be many levels of38:56extras and production and musco and all38:59that stuff, but there's an I I think39:01it's the five people around the camera,39:02the DP ad,39:05>> the the principal actors in the scene39:07that that intimacy never changes no39:09matter what's beyond that. And that's39:11where our focus is anyway.39:13>> Yeah.39:13>> I don't think scope makes size, you39:16know. I think it's really the story.39:18>> I mean, like sentimental value is huge.39:21It's just gigantic, you know, and so39:24>> it's really the story and and39:27Fruitville. Oh my god. You know, I just39:30uh39:30>> impact.39:31>> It's impact. It's story. That's where39:33the size is39:34>> with these last three uh films, Hurt39:37Locker, Zero Dark. Well, not the last39:39three, but your trilogy, Heart Locker,39:40Zero Dark 30, and House of Dynamite.39:42Making films that deal with the American39:44military and government and all of that.39:46Segments of it have given you push back.39:48Is that a badge of honor? Would you have39:51been happy if if that hadn't happened?39:53>> Well, I never anticipated it39:55necessarily. Yeah. I just think what's39:57interesting is there's a conversation39:59whether it's antagonistic or productive.40:02There's a conversation and that's that40:04was the intention of the film and so I40:07feel like thrilled that you know we've40:10arrived at that place.40:11>> Jim, you've been the leading figure in40:13the area of motion capture and 3D40:15technology for you say performance40:17capture. pardon me, performance capture.40:19Is it being used as much as you would40:21have expected when you embarked on this40:24kind of uh revolution?40:26>> It's very niche. It's very niche. It was40:28We never intended to revolutionize how40:30movies are made. And if you can shoot40:31something with a camera, I mean, I40:33there's nothing I love more than40:34handholding with a camera in my hands40:36and a couple of actors and just, you40:38know, it's that intimacy around the40:40camera that I that I love.40:41>> You know, performance capture is a means40:43to an end to do a specific thing which40:45is quite niche. Performance capture is40:47just a way to do makeup.40:48>> It has to be recognizably the actor but40:51pushed a little bit into a slightly near40:54human character. So, it has limited40:56applications. If we hadn't made so much40:57damn money with Avatar, I wouldn't be40:59doing it.40:59>> Yeah. Interesting.41:00>> I'm not trying to I'm not trying to sell41:02it to anybody else. Trust me, it's a41:04nightmare, but it's fun. It's fun. I41:07mean, it's a nightmare downstream, but41:08the actual act of creation is a lot of41:10fun41:11>> because you're not worried about camera41:12and dolly track and time of day and all41:14the other things that you worry about as41:16a you got to stamp that image, that41:18sensor or that film plane41:20>> with the thing, you know, that's you41:23know, and you don't have to do that in41:24performance capture. All you got to do41:26is just get the essence of the scene and41:28you're good. And then you sort all other41:30stuff out later. And the actors love it41:32for that reason because they don't have41:34to hit marks. They don't have to worry41:35about the lighting or how to turn or any41:38of that sort of thing.41:39>> Man, I'm I'm just trying to think about41:40how you doing it. Like, are you taking41:42notes on where you want to be when you41:44when you watch it?41:45>> You know how you you'd line up maybe41:47with a viewfinder or video camera or how41:49however you you kind of block your41:52scene. Just do the same thing once with41:54the virtual camera. You see where the41:56characters are going to be. There's a41:57waterfall there. There's a floating41:58mountain up there. There's a creature42:00over there. And then forget about it.42:01And then I just jump in and I get right42:03in like like you say, get right in their42:05space.42:06>> And after a while, it's like wildlife42:08photography. They they're used to the42:10camera hide to the blind. [laughter]42:12They're used to me being there, you42:14know. I try to be as as, you know, tiny42:17as possible. But I love it.42:19>> Ryan, one thing that got a lot of42:20attention was that with Centers, you42:23made a deal that 25 years from now, the42:26rights, the ownership will revert to to42:28you. What made you decide with this film42:30to seek that and is it something that42:33you think will become more common going42:35forward?42:36>> Brilliant.42:37>> Yeah, I can't speak to [clears throat]42:38what's going to happen going forward.42:40Um, but what I will say about that is it42:42was something that I look to other42:45filmmakers, you know, for like I'm42:47constantly looking at what everybody42:48else is doing to kind of find my way. I42:50have a hard time leaping to a place that42:51I that I haven't, you know, haven't at42:53least seen somebody get to before, you42:56know, and yeah, I knew it was something42:58that was possible, you know, filmmakers42:59that that that that I know had done it43:01and and and um and I was fortunate43:04enough to to have made um some movies43:07that that that have some financial43:09success. Um this one um what I figured43:12those things that bought me was the43:13ability to write on spec you know and I43:16was coming out of the uh we were coming43:17out of the collective strikes the writer43:18guild strike the sag strike and and43:21everything felt like existential the43:23conversations about cinema and are43:25people still going to the movies? Do43:26young people go to the movies?43:28>> You know, all all the all these things43:29kind of all of it, you know, it was all43:31it was it was a you know, it still is a43:33scary time, but it was a43:34>> it was a scary time when when when43:36>> it felt like, man, this next movie I do43:38might be my last. You know what I mean?43:39And it being so much about capitalism as43:42much as it is about anything in in my43:44people's relationship with it here in43:45this country,43:46>> right?43:46>> And my my uncle was a sharecropper like43:48the like like the folks in the in in the43:50film who had been, you know, [ __ ] over43:51his whole life, you know, and I'm and43:53I'm telling his story. So, so it was one43:55of those things where we we we went out43:57with the with the script and had a list43:58of of asks and fortunately enough like44:01like credit to the to the to the to the44:02health of the business. A lot of studios44:04were into it, you know, like and that44:06that that was, you know, heartwarming44:07and then terrifying once Warner Brothers44:09said, "All right, let's go. I didn't44:11want to make them look stupid, you know.44:12[laughter]44:13And if anybody like looks to to me and44:15what I did for for motivation for44:17something, I think that's that's awesome44:18because I definitely looked around to to44:19to Tyler Perry and Night Shaman and and44:22Quincy and you know and everybody else.44:24I'm constantly looking at what folks who44:26did it before me are are doing and how44:28they navigating certain things,44:29>> you know. So I felt very fortunate.44:31>> Sure.44:31>> I want that deal. [laughter]44:34>> 25 years from now.44:38>> I'll be 96 [laughter] if I make a movie44:41next year. I get that deal. So, I don't44:44know what the [ __ ] I'm going to do with44:45it at [laughter] the age of 96.44:46>> If you had that deal back then, at least44:48you know you have it.44:50>> You might not even know what it is.44:52>> But [laughter] can you imagine if you44:52had that deal when you made Avatar?44:54>> I wish I had.44:56>> So, Chloe, you mentioned taking four44:58years off. Uh, that was very45:00understandable because almost45:02overlappingly, but released in45:04backto-back years were Nomad Land and45:06then Eternals. Yorgos, you have now made45:10three in three years. There was 2023's45:12Poor Things, 2024's kinds of kindness,45:15and now Beonia. Uh, so I'd like to point45:18that towards you two and just ask what45:20is the ideal amount of time between45:22films for a filmmaker?45:23>> I'm ready to take a break as I've45:25mentioned and it has become a thing is45:27taking a break from film making45:29>> which is like I just want to go on45:31holidays for [laughter] you know a few45:33months.45:34>> It's going to last a week.45:35>> Yeah. cuz like the last I don't know45:37four or five years I haven't like I45:39haven't stopped and some the films like45:42almost over overlapped like when we were45:44I I I shot kinds of kindness when we45:47were doing the VFX for Poor Things cuz I45:50felt it was just too long and I didn't45:51want to sit around and we had this45:54script so I went like why don't we go45:55and shoot it until you know the VFX is45:58finished and then we can go and edit45:59that one and and then Bugonia you know I46:03I received that script and I got excited46:05excited and so when we went to can to46:09present kinds of kindness we had already46:11start prepping bugonia so it's too it's46:15too intense I wouldn't recommend it to46:17anyone at that point it felt very46:19exhilarating but you know uh after a46:22long time you know doing it you go like46:24I I think yeah there there should be46:27some time in between46:29>> films so yeah I'm ready for that time46:31now46:32>> Chloe was four years too too long uh or46:35just right. I think there's no I don't46:38have an answer to that because I think46:39the internal landscape inform the46:42external landscape meaning that I46:44actually don't believe that stories I46:48choose the stories I really do believe46:50they choose me right46:51>> you know when whatever we're doing in46:54our own lives and working on ourselves46:57>> and when you become the right conduit I46:59I believe story exists past present47:01future way beyond us I love the47:05Australian and aboriges believe in the47:07dream time.47:09>> You know that our reality is dreamed47:11into existence by the creator. So I like47:14to think that I'm a conduit half of the47:16time like I can have intentions and and47:18and interests and questions I want to47:21ask the world but then at the right47:23moment in my life I will be chosen to47:26tell certain kind of stories and that47:28could be back toback that could be every47:31how many years but when that happens47:35synchronicity will start happen around47:36me47:37>> it's clearly you're chosen it has to be47:39now and then you can decide if you want47:41to answer the call or not because It's47:43not going to be easy.47:44>> And so that's only until it gets to that47:47point I will leap.47:48>> Yeah.47:49>> Do you find that that there's a sense of47:52it being received while you're making47:54the film that the film's telling you47:56what it's supposed to be? I I've sort of47:58gotten to that place48:00>> especially on this last film48:03>> where I felt like it wasn't it wasn't it48:06wasn't me imposing my will on the story.48:09>> I can see that. Well, having seen the48:11film48:12>> and Katherine, do you you seem to relate48:13to that?48:14>> Yeah. Oh, no. I think it's I think what48:16Chloe was saying about they the film the48:18stories find you, you know, and then48:20you're kind of incapable of not doing48:22it. You know, there's something then it48:24becomes a pull that's uh you know48:28indomitable.48:28>> I I always go into the writing room with48:30my dear friend Esk. We made film scripts48:33together. I directed six films48:35>> and I always have this idea of doing48:37something a little bit more fancy or48:39cool. and then something occurs and it's48:42like a okay it's going to be this and48:44I'm always grateful for that cuz I feel48:46like my biggest anxiety is always going48:48back to the blank page and and I don't48:50develop I we write what we write that48:52year and then I make it so so that takes48:54time also and every time something48:56happens like I smash my knee up the48:59worst person in the world took them four49:00years between I had to learn to walk49:02again for this one I I had two kids you49:04know like so life but I also make films49:06about life so I accept it but I admire49:09people who can like de I always I always49:11look to other people like how do you49:13develop all those things at once and49:14stuff but I seem incapable. Maybe I'll49:16learn one.49:16>> You gota do you got to do it your way,49:18you know? I think by now that's what I49:20do.49:20>> You got to do it your way. Somewhere49:22around that time I was getting ready to49:23work on this movie. I went to go see49:25Andre 300049:27>> do a flute a flute concert.49:29>> Yeah.49:30>> And I'll never forget like it was in49:32this in this place called The Cave in49:33like Napa Valley where they do the jazz49:35festival. He says, "Hey, me me and my49:37band, we just a bunch of people that49:38have our antennas way up and we're gonna49:40play whatever comes to us in the in the49:42moment." I was expecting to hear the49:43album, you know what I mean? I was a49:44little disappointed, but he but he said49:46he says, "We just have our antennas our49:47antennas up high49:49>> and and we we going to play whatever49:50whatever you guys give us, whatever his49:52is."49:52>> I I thought about it like every every49:55day working on a movie was like, "Y'all49:56got to make sure that my my antenna is49:58up49:59>> to catch, you know, to catch whatever,50:01you know, whatever whatever is around50:03and whatever I'm responding to." But the50:05antenna also has to be deep like down50:07within within myself so I can know where50:10I'm at, you know what I mean? And what50:11I'm and what I'm responding to. So So50:14you know that combination, you know, I50:17thought about it all the time, you know?50:19>> Oh, that's interesting.50:20>> So the two most uh veteran members at50:23this table are Jim and Catherine. You50:25guys have uh been doing this the50:27longest. You were married from 89 to 91.50:30You made films together after that. We50:32were married longer ago than half our50:34lives.50:35>> No. [laughter] Well, and then continue50:36to make great films together, including50:38we mentioned Strange Days. We love50:40working together and I know that you50:41guys have been very supportive. It's50:43funny how your films always seem to come50:45out in the same year. [laughter]50:47But I guess my question is, what is the50:50biggest thing that you've each learned50:52from the other?50:54[laughter]50:55>> We're loving this.50:56>> Can I jump?50:57>> Of course.50:58>> Authenticity.50:59M51:00>> Katherine cannot do anything that's not51:02authentic. It would drive you nuts to do51:05something that wasn't authentic.51:07>> Seriously, I mean it's like it's like51:10not not about for you. I think it's51:12evolved to not be about pushing away51:15that which is commercial. It's figuring51:17out what's what's real in the world and51:20then running that through your lens. And51:23I I look I look for that in my own work.51:25I've seen you I've seen you do it. I51:27mean, we work together on on film, but51:29it's got to be real.51:30>> That's very kind of you.51:32>> No, but it it can't be fake. It can't it51:34can't follow some51:36>> formula, some alchemy that's that's51:38imposed from without. It's utter51:41authenticity, and that's the power of51:42your films.51:43>> Oh, thank you.51:44>> I'm not saying I I do it that way.51:46[laughter]51:48>> Katherine,51:50>> I think the desire to just reach as far51:54as you possibly can. I mean that really51:56comes from Jim,51:58>> you know, just a reach that seems both52:01improbable and impossible52:03>> and yet52:06doable.52:08>> You do it. [laughter]52:10>> Okay. So, our our last minute here. What52:13is the most misunderstood film in your52:15filmography that you would like people52:17to go back and watch again? I think I52:19heard you talk about yours, y'all. Cam,52:21>> what would it be?52:22It would probably be a film I'm terribly52:25proud of. It's called Louder than Bombs52:27that I think I have, you know, I was52:28working with Deon Druid, Jesse52:30Eisenberg, Isabella Pair, and Gabriel52:32Burn. And I was doing a dream project52:34about family, deeply personal, and it52:36came after also August 31st. And I think52:38people wanted me to do a repeat of that52:40and and that kind of and you remember52:42that year at Ken, we were there together52:44and we'd both done films in English52:46language and they were giving us hell52:47about it. Do you remember this? Which52:50which [laughter]52:51>> you don't remember52:53>> that we met at some party and we're52:55talking about like there was like it was52:58you and me were both we were all doing53:00English language and became a thing and53:01I think I think we were a little bit53:02hurt by maybe not you as much as me.53:05>> Anyway, I'll get off my soap box by53:06saying I'm very proud of that film for53:08me. Strange days. Oh, go ahead. Go53:10ahead. Go ahead.53:11>> Go ahead.53:11>> I would say Detroit. I don't know. It53:14was such an important piece to me anyway53:17and you know this horrible horrible53:19horrible tragedy and I I don't know I53:22just think that was kind of53:24misunderstood.53:25>> Yeah.53:25>> People should take another look at53:27Detroit for sure.53:28>> I was I was saying Strange Days because53:31you know nobody went [laughter]53:34>> they just didn't show up. It's a great53:36movie. I love I'm very proud of it. I53:38produced it and co-wrote it. Catherine53:40directed it and it's that's the one53:42people I bring up. So you know what?53:45>> Strange night is what everybody brings53:46up. Like when I'm with Angela53:48>> whenever your name will come up.53:49>> Oh, Angela is so phenomenal.53:51>> Yeah, everybody brings up53:54she's wonderful.53:55>> Mine is the most easy answer. Eternals.53:57You know, I'm always learning trying to53:59be a better filmmaker. Never say that54:02any kind of film that's perfect or you54:04know, doesn't need to be improved. And54:06then, you know, will we ever ready?54:09Sometimes maybe not. Always could be54:11better. So I've learned a lot. Um but I54:14do feel that um um it was very much for54:18me about a pantheons of gods, immortals54:22discussing the nature of humanity and it54:24was something I like a Greek play and54:26then I really wanted54:27>> to talk about that and there's a lot of54:29passion deep love for the film. Um but54:32uh that I don't say more because54:34whatever I say always get misunderstood.54:36Okay, last thing and I will note uh54:39Charlie XCX declared that this past year54:42uh there was Yakim Chair Summer, right?54:45This was hyping up this great filmmaker54:48who is an upand cominging filmmaker who54:51you really admire and not at this table.54:54Somebody who you really similarly54:56believe in and want to give a shout out54:58to Yokim as the namesake of this you go55:01first please. She did mention a couple55:03of other directors too. PTA amongst55:06others who I think is a genius. But55:08okay. Um there's a Norwegian director55:10called Dog Yan Halgarud who won the55:13Golden Bear this year. So he's not a55:16newcomer. He's made films longer than I55:18have55:18>> and the world is discovering him at the55:20moment and and he's made great films.55:22>> I don't move in the festival circuits55:24when I [laughter]55:25>> No, I don't I don't see people when55:27they're just breaking, you [laughter]55:29know. I mean, I used to I mean, I55:32remember when David Lynch showed up.55:34[laughter]55:34>> Oh, man.55:35>> With Blue Velvet, you know, that was55:37pretty clear, but I mean, not lately.55:39>> Okay. Ask somebody else.55:40>> We'll go to go to Ryan.55:42>> I got I got I got Boo Riley.55:44>> Yes.55:44>> You can't call him a newcomer.55:46>> Yeah. We can just say somebody that55:47deserves more attention than they're55:48getting.55:49>> Yeah. You know, we from the same from55:50the same area. Like I run into him55:52getting coffee or what have you, but he55:54kind of a um he kind of like like like55:57got a sensei vibe. He's just an55:58incredible storyteller and got a very um56:01deep point of view. So So I think you56:03know I shall boo.56:05>> Yeah. I mean I'm having trouble thinking56:07newcomer but like I always think like56:11someone who's now a very good friend56:13Kelly Iard her films don't get the56:15attention I think that they deserve. you56:17know, I don't know the reason they feel56:20I guess56:22they're they might be too subtle, which56:24is why they're so beautiful and fragile56:26and you know, and there's other like56:28Alita or Vakar I love and I was going to56:30say Alicia56:31>> or Lucricia Martell.56:34>> I'm thinking these women that, you know,56:36make incredible films and they don't get56:39the attention that we get. I guess56:41>> I I always just say happy as Lazero is56:44one of the best films I've ever seen.56:47>> Well, on behalf of the Hollywood56:48Reporter and everybody watching, thank56:50you guys all so much for making the time56:51to do this and for these terrific films56:54that we've been talking about. Really56:55appreciate it. Thank you.56:56>> Thank you.56:59>> We did it. We did it.57:01[music]57:09>> [music]57:15[music]
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